Reply to: Intra Company Transfer (ICT) abuse: information and complaining

[MPwannadecentincome]

If you're the owner of a global company what would you do?

What is the 'owner' of a global company - most of the global companies are 'owned' by shareholders (groups of people, equity investors, pension schemes, insurance companies, investment houses, etc) - not one person.

If it is one person or even two, the decisions and policy would be influenced by that person's own experience, upbringing and ethics.

[mace]

Just did a search on IBM jobs website

Honestly don't agree, because that path depends on something that is not the reality, that good, english speaking, qualified staff are an unlimited resource in India (and other such countrys) and that simply is not the case

Call centers are a good example, when companys and banks first started off shoring call centers, their saving were huge and drop in quality was minimal.

Customers could pick up the phone and never know that they were talking to someone in India

Now, over a decade later, the saving to be made offshoring call centers has been dramaticlly reduced due to local costs going up (but not denying there is still a saving to be made) and the quality of service has gone way way down.

Like who these days does not get regularly get on the phone some clueless script reading drone with a accent so thick you would need an advanced degree in linguistics to understand them?

Gone are the days of indians on the phone speaking better english than oxford graduates, reading the Times and Daily Mail and keeping up with the local English weather. Those ones are are now either running the companys (or over here) while the ones who would not have got past the first interview 10 years ago are now not only answering the phones but also middle management

Now you have companys and banks bringing call centres back on shore and using it as a sales feature

And qualified IT staff are an even more limited resource, hence more off shore projects going tits up these days and more companys are bringing stuff not only back on shore but back in house

Off shoring is not longer really much of an issue anymore, the jobs that were going to be lost to that are already gone for good or coming back already

The real danger now is allowing companys to get the best of both worlds, cheap imported staff, under direct control (sometimes under near slavery levels of control because if they get fired they not only lose job but get kicked out country) who are undercutting the locals because they can access tax dodges not advalible to nationals in their own country

466 current vacancies in India
389 in USA
376 in China
51 in Australia
46 in Poland
32 in Vietnam
15 in France
13 in Hong Kong
5 in Germany
5 in UK

You don't need many people in India, China or even Poland to be able to speak English.

You'll see similar statistics if you peruse Accenture or JP Morgan or Morgan Stanley etc.

[Not So Wise]

I think not. This world revolves around money and power. Large companies have stacks of both. Governments compete with each other to attract them.
If you close down ICT abuse, then companies operating in the UK would have to pay more money in wages, would have lower profits and would be less competitive than if they moved their operation somewhere else. Although, there are certain jobs that can only be done in the UK, most IT jobs aren't included in them. The Indian offshoring companies have already worked around the face time issue by putting a manager on the UK customer site who communicates back to most of their staff based back in India. You only really need a relationship manager here and a business analyst flitting back and forth. Project managers, line managers, architects, developers, senior managers and the support staff can all be offshored.

Honestly don't agree, because that path depends on something that is not the reality, that good, english speaking, qualified staff are an unlimited resource in India (and other such countrys) and that simply is not the case

Call centers are a good example, when companys and banks first started off shoring call centers, their saving were huge and drop in quality was minimal.

Customers could pick up the phone and never know that they were talking to someone in India

Now, over a decade later, the saving to be made offshoring call centers has been dramaticlly reduced due to local costs going up (but not denying there is still a saving to be made) and the quality of service has gone way way down.

Like who these days does not get regularly get on the phone some clueless script reading drone with a accent so thick you would need an advanced degree in linguistics to understand them?

Gone are the days of indians on the phone speaking better english than oxford graduates, reading the Times and Daily Mail and keeping up with the local English weather. Those ones are are now either running the companys (or over here) while the ones who would not have got past the first interview 10 years ago are now not only answering the phones but also middle management

Now you have companys and banks bringing call centres back on shore and using it as a sales feature

And qualified IT staff are an even more limited resource, hence more off shore projects going tits up these days and more companys are bringing stuff not only back on shore but back in house

Off shoring is not longer really much of an issue anymore, the jobs that were going to be lost to that are already gone for good or coming back already

The real danger now is allowing companys to get the best of both worlds, cheap imported staff, under direct control (sometimes under near slavery levels of control because if they get fired they not only lose job but get kicked out country) who are undercutting the locals because they can access tax dodges not advalible to nationals in their own country

[malvolio]

So why are they bringing 20,000 coders and grunt DBA's into the UK to displace local workers?

[mace]

Likely to happen?

And the company's then turn around and abuse ICT's and other such things instead because the locals will not accept the crap rates (which was the real story behind the "skills shortage" during the boom, not lack people but rather lack of people willing to work for peanuts).

Lose if we do, lose if we don't

Only way we will get rates back up is by closing down the ICT abuse, then more jobs will be on offer,with a smaller potencial workforce which will force rates back up

I think not. This world revolves around money and power. Large companies have stacks of both. Governments compete with each other to attract them.
If you close down ICT abuse, then companies operating in the UK would have to pay more money in wages, would have lower profits and would be less competitive than if they moved their operation somewhere else. Although, there are certain jobs that can only be done in the UK, most IT jobs aren't included in them. The Indian offshoring companies have already worked around the face time issue by putting a manager on the UK customer site who communicates back to most of their staff based back in India. You only really need a relationship manager here and a business analyst flitting back and forth. Project managers, line managers, architects, developers, senior managers and the support staff can all be offshored.

[alreadypacked]

whats is annoying me even more is the fact local contractors are taking silly contractor rates. Companies are taking advantage of the current climate to cut rates, in a lot of cases by half...never in 12 years of contracting can I remember seeing jobs for PM's of a reasonably senior level paying £200 per day...!!!!!

We as a workforce should take a stand and REJECT any contract with silly rates. They would soon get the hint if they cant fill the roles and be forced to readjust rates....I appreciate there are a lot of people out of work but we are making a rod for our own backs which will take years to recorrect..

I have done that recently, agent phone me saying client wanted to interview me but the rate was lower than advertisied. I said no, not interested, they said rates have gone down, I said mine haven't. Agent said "you as the best applicant, you should really think about", I said I have and it's still no.

Not on the bench at the moment, maybe my answer would be different.

[Not So Wise]

whats is annoying me even more is the fact local contractors are taking silly contractor rates. Companies are taking advantage of the current climate to cut rates, in a lot of cases by half...never in 12 years of contracting can I remember seeing jobs for PM's of a reasonably senior level paying £200 per day...!!!!!

We as a workforce should take a stand and REJECT any contract with silly rates. They would soon get the hint if they cant fill the roles and be forced to readjust rates....I appreciate there are a lot of people out of work but we are making a rod for our own backs which will take years to recorrect..

And the company's then turn around and abuse ICT's and other such things instead because the locals will not accept the crap rates (which was the real story behind the "skills shortage" during the boom, not lack people but rather lack of people willing to work for peanuts).

Lose if we do, lose if we don't

Only way we will get rates back up is by closing down the ICT abuse, then more jobs will be on offer,with a smaller potencial workforce which will force rates back up

[weemster]

I'm fed up with this kind of thing:

If you are also fed up of seeing advertised roles paying silly low rates that you just know are paying lip service to the rules regarding overseas workers, you can report them.

The PCG set up this: the ICT Abuse web site.

What follows is heavily edited for the CUK audience - follow the link above for more detailed info, especially on daily rates.

The (current) process for complaining:

If you see a job for:

• any project manager role at under £156 / day
• any developer role at under £104 / day
• any support role at under £104 / day

take a screenshot and send the evidence as a screenshot (do not send links as they expire) to POLICY@PCG.ORG.UK with “ICTABUSE” in the subject line. Shortcut.


search engine keywords: Intra Company Transfers ICT abuse of ICT information how to complain complaints complaining

Thats a better rate than I'm currently on

[smalldog]

whats is annoying me even more is the fact local contractors are taking silly contractor rates. Companies are taking advantage of the current climate to cut rates, in a lot of cases by half...never in 12 years of contracting can I remember seeing jobs for PM's of a reasonably senior level paying £200 per day...!!!!!

We as a workforce should take a stand and REJECT any contract with silly rates. They would soon get the hint if they cant fill the roles and be forced to readjust rates....I appreciate there are a lot of people out of work but we are making a rod for our own backs which will take years to recorrect..

[Andy2]

I just dont see the point of clamping down on ICT's. Doing so will simply give companies even more reason to move jobs to India permanently and none of us will benefit from that.

PZZ

If they could outsource these jobs they could have done that already. The reason to bring ICT's here is that these jobs require some cutomer input or business involvement which can't be done while sitting offshore. So clamping down on ICT will certainly help UK contractors

[MPwannadecentincome]

First they take our jobs, now you're saying they'll take our women!!!

I think they prefer the women back home, they will go back to India to marry then when the wife gets her visa they come to the UK, start a family etc.

Not sure how they would survive with rates going south - their standard of living would only be slightly better than India.

[JoJoGabor]

It's basically immigration by the back door particularly when it involves single young men.

First they take our jobs, now you're saying they'll take our women!!!

[SueEllen]

I just dont see the point of clamping down on ICT's. Doing so will simply give companies even more reason to move jobs to India permanently and none of us will benefit from that.

PZZ

The ICTs who are smart, and I've worked with a few, work out how to get permanent UK residency or move to a company who pays them a UK wage. It's basically immigration by the back door particularly when it involves single young men.

[pzz76077]

I just dont see the point of clamping down on ICT's. Doing so will simply give companies even more reason to move jobs to India permanently and none of us will benefit from that.

PZZ

[malvolio]

Right, so we all pack up and go home. Well done.

Sorry, not how I work.