Reply to: P11d - correct

[blacjac]

The key word is 'intention'.
How do you prove intention?

My personal belief is that if you only have one contract with an umberella and then start a Ltd, then hector will argue that your 'intention' was to only have one contract with the brolly before going Ltd, and as you only intended to have one contract it's not a temporary workplace.

Goes against all common sense I know, but since when have investigations come down to common sense?

[NotAllThere]

Now that's interesting. I wonder how many people actually realise that...

Not many. I've mentioned it here and there for over three years since the problem was first published - where precisely I can't remember, but it may well have been in connection with "there".

[TykeMerc]

Not necessarily, it comes down to 'intention' which is a hard one for IR or anyone to prove really. If someone takes a contract role in between finishing one permie job and starting another the travel expense would most definately not be allowed but if someone intends to become a career contractor then obviously the intent is there from their first contract.

There's the rub and in my opinion it's almost a paradox at what point does the "intention" become a fact 2nd contract? 5th? 18th? What if you use 3 Umbrellas on 3 short contracts and then settle on a 4th because you hated the 1st 3, are all of those temporary or permanent?

If the OP's Umbrella has painted him into a corner (even by accident) and told HMRC that he wasn't at a temporary workplace, HMRC will take their view of the grey area and will be hard if not impossible to budge.

[Sausage Surprise]

Not necessarily, it comes down to 'intention' which is a hard one for IR or anyone to prove really. If someone takes a contract role in between finishing one permie job and starting another the travel expense would most definitely not be allowed but if someone intends to become a career contractor then obviously the intent is there from their first contract.

That's more like it...

Thanks for that.

[LisaContractorUmbrella]

I was with GIANT from March 2005 to Feb 2007 (five contracts with the same company) Have since become Ltd and had various contracts with various employers since.

Does this mean that the expenses I claimed with GIANT for travelling from Durham To Leeds everyday should have been interpreted as BIK?

When did this rule come about?

Not necessarily, it comes down to 'intention' which is a hard one for IR or anyone to prove really. If someone takes a contract role in between finishing one permie job and starting another the travel expense would most definately not be allowed but if someone intends to become a career contractor then obviously the intent is there from their first contract.

[Sausage Surprise]

In order for him to claim home to work travel he would have to had the intention to perform more than one contract through the umbrella company. If he had only one contract then, however short the contract, it would not have been a temporary location (according to HMR&C rules).

The umbrella company can process any expenses that the contractor submits provided that it is allowable by HMR&C. Anything covered by their dispensation does not have to be recorded on a P11D but everything else does. The dispensation is not reflective of what is an allowable expense

HTH

I was with GIANT from March 2005 to Feb 2007 (five contracts with the same company) Have since become Ltd and had various contracts with various employers since.

Does this mean that the expenses I claimed with GIANT for travelling from Durham To Leeds everyday should have been interpreted as BIK?

When did this rule come about?

[LisaContractorUmbrella]

Now that's interesting. I wonder how many people actually realise that...

Love the edit Mal you big smoothie you

[malvolio]

In order for him to claim home to work travel he would have to had the intention to perform more than one contract through the umbrella company. If he had only one contract then, however short the contract, it would not have been a temporary location (according to HMR&C rules).

Now that's interesting. I wonder how many people actually realise that...

[LisaContractorUmbrella]

So long as he was on a temporary placement that didn't exceed 2 years at geographically similar sites then the HMRC rules allow for reasonable travel expenses.
I don't understand how the Umbrella can claim that expenses were paid in excess of their dispensation. The Umbrella controls the payroll and can accept or reject expenses claim, their duty of care is to only accept allowable expenses.

Unless Windbag has left out a lot of critical detail I don't see how the Umbrella can have got it right for that matter them wanting any money at all for data collected and submitted about him seems pretty barmy.

In order for him to claim home to work travel he would have to had the intention to perform more than one contract through the umbrella company. If he had only one contract then, however short the contract, it would not have been a temporary location (according to HMR&C rules).

The umbrella company can process any expenses that the contractor submits provided that it is allowable by HMR&C. Anything covered by their dispensation does not have to be recorded on a P11D but everything else does. The dispensation is not reflective of what is an allowable expense

HTH

[ASB]

I did not receive a copy of the P11d - as mentioned, I would have been on this as soon as (this is for 05/06) - I suspect the brolly submitted the P11d late to the HRMC.

It was a temp contract no debate - I know the rules and comply fully.

Can I make these guys provide the back-up data they are basing this calculation upon? we all have to keep records for 7 years. I have mine but I am not the 'owner' of the
p11d and the data supporting this.

There is a legal requirement for an employer to provide a copy of the information submitted. Ultimately of course the dispensation (if any) is simply for the brolly. THe 2595 at dispute is simply an indication of what has been paid to you outwith their dispensation. If you have the evidence of it's payment, and belief it is within the rules then there is no problem. You simply mention on your tax return the 2595 as income (which it is) and make a matching claim for 2595 in expenses (which you beleive they are).

Even if you only had one contract with the umbrella it may still be a temporary workplace. It depends largely on what your intent was. If you intent was to enter into a series of assignments then it is probably a temporary workplace.

[blacjac]

I did not receive a copy of the P11d - as mentioned, I would have been on this as soon as (this is for 05/06) - I suspect the brolly submitted the P11d late to the HRMC.

It was a temp contract no debate - I know the rules and comply fully.

Can I make these guys provide the back-up data they are basing this calculation upon? we all have to keep records for 7 years. I have mine but I am not the 'owner' of the
p11d and the data supporting this.

1. Your employer does not have to provide you with a copy of your P11d unless you request it. As for charging for it, they may be allowed to charge a reasonable admin fee, but £50 does not sound reasonable to me.

2. You seem to be evading the question of "Did you have more than one contract with this umbrella?", if you did not then it is not a temporary workplace and travel expenses are benefits in kind. HMRC rules I'm afraid.

[windbag]

more

I did not receive a copy of the P11d - as mentioned, I would have been on this as soon as (this is for 05/06) - I suspect the brolly submitted the P11d late to the HRMC.

It was a temp contract no debate - I know the rules and comply fully.

Can I make these guys provide the back-up data they are basing this calculation upon? we all have to keep records for 7 years. I have mine but I am not the 'owner' of the
p11d and the data supporting this.

[NotAllThere]

It's been a long time since I was an employee, but IIRC, don't you get a copy of the P11d or the P11 or something, so you can fill in your tax return?

Also, as has been pointed out, if you've only had one contract through the other brolly, then it can be interpreted that it wasn't a temporary workplace. The idea is that temporary workplaces only count if there's more than one with the same employer. If a permie goes from employee A to employee B, at different location, after 3 months, there's no question of A being a "temporary workplace".

[windbag]

update

thanks for the contributions - valuable stuff. This is a major brolly company - I moved on after changing locations & contracts (yes under the 2 year guidelines). All travel was submitted with all the correct data requested. Including detailed evidence of my home and weekly B&B location. The Issue is £2595 indicated by the Co. to HRMC via a P11d that I was totaly unaware of. No copy was provided to me (honest!) otherwise i would have been on this asap. No expenses were paid outside of the 40/25p guidelines and should never appeared on a P11d.

My claims are also in accordance with the excellent all-round brolly team i am with now. I cant get the company to simply explain where we don't agree. I did receive some flannel that HRMC 'changed the requirements' midway thro the year (05/06). Make sense?

[malvolio]

Could it be that mileage, as a normal non-BIK allowance, is not actually listed on the umbrella's dispensation in the first place? Unlike hotels and meals, there is no obligation to receipt it after all, merely to be able to demonstrate if asked that it has been legitmately claimed. Could simply be the OP has missed a bit of form filing...