Reply to: Working before contract was signed. What are my options?

[rootsnall]

Lessons learnt: Never start working without a signed contract. ...

I wouldn't make that a hard and fast rule ! Sometimes it's better to get your backside in there before somebody else takes the job and then sort things out once you're on site. I've gone on site with no contract at all but an emailed one is enough for me if it looks OK.

[malvolio]

What are the IR35 implications of not having a (written) contract at all?

Not as bad as the business ones?

Contracts are mostly for when things go wrong or you have to prove something. As Mr Dragonfly has recently discovered, it's not a given that what you think your contract says is what the client thinks it says, but if you have one at least you can argue the point.

[THEPUMA]

What are the IR35 implications of not having a (written) contract at all?

Better than having a crap contract. Worse than having a good contract.

HMRC ask you to clarify the terms that were in place but clearly if you say that you had an unfettered RoS they will not necessarily just take that at face value.

[ittony]

What are the IR35 implications of not having a (written) contract at all?

[NickFitz]

Just to let everyone know - downloaded the sample PCG contract yesterday, filled it in, got it approved by B&C and got the agency to sign it.

Lessons learnt: Never start working without a signed contract. Use the PCG resources afforded by the subscription...

Thanks for all the constructive answers

Have you checked the terms of the contract between the client and the agency? If those fall within IR35 then you are still not safe

[Pops]

All's well that ends well

Just to let everyone know - downloaded the sample PCG contract yesterday, filled it in, got it approved by B&C and got the agency to sign it.

Lessons learnt: Never start working without a signed contract. Use the PCG resources afforded by the subscription...

Thanks for all the constructive answers

[TheBigYinJames]

Chances are you are not even insured if you are on the client's premises without a contract. If anything goes wrong you might find yourself personally responsible. It's not a good idea ever to work without a signed contract.

[malvolio]

As blacjac pointed out, I have indeed told them in email and have their agreement to this in their reply. So, there is no implicit agreement to the contract. Which still leaves me working without a contract...

The client is pushing the agency to get things sorted and they seem to think that it will be a simple matter of getting a sample contract from B&C, who are not so inclined (as IR35 experts and not company lawyers...).

Offer them the standard PCG one. IR35 compliant (assuming you are of course) and commercially valid, acceptable to both REC and ATSCo. B&C will be happy with it.

www.pcg.org.uk

[Pops]

Not if you told them in writing (or email) that you were only starting work on the basis that the contract would be rewritten to comply with IR35.

Which the OP indicated they had.

As blacjac pointed out, I have indeed told them in email and have their agreement to this in their reply. So, there is no implicit agreement to the contract. Which still leaves me working without a contract...

The client is pushing the agency to get things sorted and they seem to think that it will be a simple matter of getting a sample contract from B&C, who are not so inclined (as IR35 experts and not company lawyers...).

[blacjac]

I you have started work, you have implicitly agreed to work under the contract originally presented. The agency don't have to (and probably won't) change you on to a new contract less favourable to them as they've got no incentive to. They're laughing all the way to the bank...

Not if you told them in writing (or email) that you were only starting work on the basis that the contract would be rewritten to comply with IR35.

Which the OP indicated they had.

[Cowboy Bob]

I you have started work, you have implicitly agreed to work under the contract originally presented. The agency don't have to (and probably won't) change you on to a new contract less favourable to them as they've got no incentive to. They're laughing all the way to the bank...

[Pops]

malvolio: Thanks for the advice. I know that starting before signing the contract was not the best move (understatement...), but I was really keen on starting to work, as I have not been working in several months.

The contract only started this week, so not much has been lost in time or money. I will go in to have a word with the client and explain things over and get him on my side, and leave as soon as that is done.

[BrilloPad]

and next time, don't start until you have a signed contract, or have learned enough to be able to make your own assessment.

Very good point

[expat]

Hi,

I have started working a new contract prior to signing anything, under an understanding with the agency that I will work without a contract until it clears (or is negotiated to clear) IR35.

The contract ... needs a complete rewrite...

The agency is keen on keeping me on, but I am not sure how prepared they are to getting a completely new contract drawn up

they agreed to make it IR35-OK. Now they find that takes a bit of work. Fortunately they are keen on keeping you.

So what's the problem? Oh yes, the problem is that you are ready to lose a fortune in voluntary taxation in order to keep the agency from the pain of having to keep their promise.

Right.

[HairyArsedBloke]

Hi,

I have started working a new contract prior to signing anything, .....

What should I do?

Stay at home, go to the beach/pub/park/etc. Do not enter the clients building. Without a contract or other documentation you have no reason to be there. If something happens then it's going to be a legal nightmare.