Another "I've signed a contract but" thread.

[xodia]

I know another guy who just quit consultancy without telling them and went contracting with the client. It was a huge project with loads of offsite work, so his aim was to lay low until the heat had gone. He was fine for a couple of months, but then had some bad luck when a rare visit to the client head office coincided with a rare visit of a Director from the consultancy.

Despite spotting the Director across the office and making a discrete getaway he'd been clocked and a couple of days later he got a recorded delivery letter from Consultancy's solicitor telling him to stop immediately or face legal action. He didn't bother fighting, just left (with agreement from client) and ended up going back to the same client 6 months later...

That sounds like those dire warnings you get on chain emails lol

[Spoiler]

In then end I found that I got the advice I wanted from ACAS.

Cheers, I'll give them a try. Had a quick look on their website but didn't find anything relevant, well, except the phone number. I'll give them a ring tomorrow & see what they say.

[NickNick]

Cheers. I'll get in touch with them.

I'm also going to have a look at the PCG site now & see what they can do.

good stuff. My advice would be to speak to at least 2 separate sources as I've found that you get different legal advice depending on which employment lawyer you talk to. In then end I found that I got the advice I wanted from ACAS.

[Spoiler]

Definitely get legal advice. I'd use Egos (Roger Sinclair).

Cheers. I'll get in touch with them.

I'm also going to have a look at the PCG site now & see what they can do.

[Spoiler]

The client has said they're happy to support me in whatever capacity they can if my company get funny. However, as my company is currently not doing any business with the client (& probably won't for the foreseeable future), I'm not sure if they're going to be that bothered what the client says.

I guess the next step is to get a lawyer to look over it & get their opinion.

I don't want to approach my company now as I'm booked on a training course soon & I would have thought that me saying I want to leave may affect this. I'll have a word once the course is finished!

[NotAllThere]

...I do, however, have a clause in my permie contract along the lines of:
"For a period of 12 months after termination, accept or solicit an offer of employment from any client or be employed in any capacity by a client".
(Perhaps this clause is irrelevant as I'll be employed by my own Ltd).

And:
"For a period of 12 months after termination, accept in any capacity orders for restricted products or restricted services from a client".

And:
"For a period of 12 months after termination, seek in any capacity any business orders or custom for restricted products or restricted services from a client"...

Definitely get legal advice. I'd use Egos (Roger Sinclair). But here's a few things you might like to think about.

If you were to go an work for another consultancy, and they placed you at the client, fulfilling this contract roll, could your former employer take any legal action against you or your new employer? Could they take action against the client? Does you owning, being a director of, the consultancy affect this?

If you work through a ltd co. or an umbrella company you are NOT employed by the client.

Working through an agency would muddy the waters further. Especially if the contact is already out with an agency. You apply via the agency, with an nice auditable paper trail. It was just this most amazing coincidence that the contract you applied for turned out to be with the client of your previous employer.

My feeling is that you won't get any bother (and if you do, they haven't a leg to stand on), because employment contracts are very limited wrt what can be actually enforced. The contract between your current employer and the client is another matter. That's B2B.

[minstrel]

I know a few people who have done exactly this.

The way one of them did it was to get the client on side and for them to have a conversation with the consultancy along the lines of:

"Hello Mr Consultancy, we've been chatting to Spoiler and it looks like he's had enough of permie life and is going contracting. We're a bit upset about this because he's a great chap and we really want to have him working on our project. We've got a contract position on the project that would suit him down to the ground and we want him to take the role. You're not going to get in the way of this happening are you? After all you wouldn't want to jeopardise our nice relationship and risk us kicking out the other 10 consultants you have with us?"

I guess that only works if the client really likes you and is prepared to put in some effort.

Another guy went direct to his consultancy and said:

"I'm quitting and going contracting. You can either take me on as a contractor and use me to fill the role for the client and take an 'agency cut' or I'll go via another agency/direct, you won't make anything, but you have the option to sue me."

Obviously, a bit less blunt than that, but it worked.

I know another guy who just quit consultancy without telling them and went contracting with the client. It was a huge project with loads of offsite work, so his aim was to lay low until the heat had gone. He was fine for a couple of months, but then had some bad luck when a rare visit to the client head office coincided with a rare visit of a Director from the consultancy.

Despite spotting the Director across the office and making a discrete getaway he'd been clocked and a couple of days later he got a recorded delivery letter from Consultancy's solicitor telling him to stop immediately or face legal action. He didn't bother fighting, just left (with agreement from client) and ended up going back to the same client 6 months later...

So, I think the moral of the story (from my experience) is to negotiate with Consultancy and Client before you do anything. You might be surprised at the reaction of the Consultancy if you are upfront about it - especially if you have a good relationship with your managers.

[Spoiler]

I would expect them to start proceedings against you using their large legal department as a matter of course

No large legal department at permie firm, it's a small company. That doesn't negate their ability to enlist legal help though.

[shoes]

I would expect them to go after you. They have a relationship with your potential client so I would assume they are going to hear about it. I would expect them to start proceedings against you using their large legal department as a matter of course, if for no other reason than to make an example out of you to prevent others doing the same.

Sticking bodies on site and paying you less than they are charging is how they are in business, if they get a sniff of this they will be after you.

Go contracting but do it at another site you haven't been at for at least a year, or a new one. Keep in touch with the relevant people at this one and come back to it in the future.

And before you leave get hold of their client list for the relevant technologies.

[NickFitz]

Can you have spaces in XML tags? Shouldn't it be:

<Permie_Anonymous>
Hello, my name is Spoiler and I'm a permie.
</Permie_Anonymous>

That's one approach, but I'd recommend

<Permie identity="Anonymous">
Blah
</Permie>

given that the anonymity of the permie is an attribute thereof, not a fundamental characteristic of all permies.

And I also prefer the singular form to take the "y", giving us:

<Permies>
   <Permy identity="Anonymous">
      <![CDATA[Hello, my name is Spoiler and I'm a permie.]]>
   </Permy>
   <Permy identity="Fred">
      <![CDATA[Hello, my name is Fred and I'm an example.]]>
   </Permy>
   <Permy identity="Wilmslow">
      <![CDATA[They're pissing on my shoes again!]]>
   </Permy>
</Permies>

as a viable schema for handling multiple permies.

[KentPhilip]

<Permie Anonymous>
Hello, my name is Spoiler and I'm a permie.
</Permie Anonymous>

Can you have spaces in XML tags? Shouldn't it be:

<Permie_Anonymous>
Hello, my name is Spoiler and I'm a permie.
</Permie_Anonymous>

[Spoiler]

<Permie Anonymous>
Hello, my name is Spoiler and I'm a permie.
</Permie Anonymous>

So then, I'm currently a permie working as a consultant. One of our clients has a contract role coming up, and it would suit us both nicely if I were to take it.

I do, however, have a clause in my permie contract along the lines of:
"For a period of 12 months after termination, accept or solicit an offer of employment from any client or be employed in any capacity by a client".
(Perhaps this clause is irrelevant as I'll be employed by my own Ltd).

And:
"For a period of 12 months after termination, accept in any capacity orders for restricted products or restricted services from a client".

And:
"For a period of 12 months after termination, seek in any capacity any business orders or custom for restricted products or restricted services from a client".


No point asking here if I am going to get sued if I take up the contract, as hopefully none of you are my boss! However, I would be interested in thoughts on a couple of things.

1. One thing I hear a lot from others is "employment restrictions like this won't hold up in court, as they are a restraint against you working for a living, etc". Anyone have any concrete evidence on this, or is it just a myth?

2. I'm going to get someone who knows employment law to have a look & advise on it. Any recommendations?

3. If I were to leave my permie role, the first thing I would do is sign up with the PCG - could I get any sort of backing from them? (Probably a question I should ask the PCG).

4. Is there any insurance I could take out that would cover my backside in the event of my permie boss suing me (& them winning)?

I had a search through the forum, but other examples of this kind were really for contractors wanting to go direct. Perhaps this is a little different?!

Thanks.