Reply to: Notice Period

[malvolio]

I have never ever in 25 years had an offer like that. It is always "come and join the team and you will be allocated whatever project responsibility is most in need on the day that you arrive".

Which might explain our differing perspectives then. My last 10 contracts over 12 years have been task-related, varying from "Deliver a working Heldpesk" to "Develop and manage a strategic plan to move 2000 servers to a new datacentre".

[tim123]

We're actually in agreement Mal in terms of the difference between contractor and pseudo-permie. I was making a general observation on the plumber analogy. For a lot of contractors, I would suggest the six month turn-up-and-do-what-you're-told contract is what they get.

I agree.

I would just love to be intervied, and be offered a subsequent contract, to perform an agreed "project task", even in the most general of terms.

I have never ever in 25 years had an offer like that. It is always "come and join the team and you will be allocated whatever project responsibility is most in need on the day that you arrive".

With some clients, it is even hard to extract from them whether this task is most likely to be "design", "code" or "test". And it is not unknown to be told that it will "definately be "design" and when you get there it is "test". On one occasion I arrived to be allocated to a completely different project to the one I was interviewed for.

If you aren't prepared to accept such "offers", then they will find someone who will, and the only protection that I have from being 'conned' into taking on a job that I never would have agreed to if asked, is to have a notice period.

And as I have said before, I work predominately for a small number of very large multinations who employ lots of contractors, so I KNOW that there are tens of thousands who accept contracts on these terms. So I have a BIG problem with people posting advice about not agreeing to such contracts with implications that you have a choice, and it is your own fault for doing so.

tim

[Turion]

Employees have Notice Periods and cannot be termitated without due process. Contractors don't, and can be terminated immediately if the client so desires. Does that demonstrate the effect on IR35 status clearly enough?

Two points to make here:

1) You say that to be clear of IR35 a contractor cannot have or do anything that a permie does. Ok, as an example, does that mean when you are on a client site you do do use the staff toilets? After all, the employees use them so if you use them it surely must breach IR35. What do you do - take your own bucket?

2) You compare IT contractors to plumbers et al. As already stated, this is an incorrect analogy. A plumber may do a weeks work with one customer and then move on. A contractor typically works much longer continuously at a single site. That is a big difference and needs a termination clause to facilitate a legally defined method of ending a the supply of service. Who knows what can happen during a 6 month gig.

[ratewhore]

QED. Why would you do that? It would be an employment contract and IR35 caught.

Sorry, you have just demonstrated why the analogy holds: I take on contractors to do defined pieces of work and I take on contracts for defined pieces of work. Both may be time limited in some way, usually to simplify the client's budget management. The failure to appreciate the difference between that and a six month turn-up-and-do-what -you're-told-and-please-can-I-have-employee-like-protection is the difference between in and out of IR35. Or, if you prefer, the difference between a freelance and a pseudo-permie.

We're actually in agreement Mal in terms of the difference between contractor and pseudo-permie. I was making a general observation on the plumber analogy. For a lot of contractors, I would suggest the six month turn-up-and-do-what-you're-told contract is what they get.

[expat]

... a worker that is taken on to, for example, install a new bathroom: how happy would they be if the installer got bored after four days and told you they were leaving for something better?

Not happy. And not much happier if he gave notice.

[malvolio]

Temporary Worker

No, pseudo-permie, unwilling or possibly unable to stand alone or work outside the comfort zone of protections that don't actually mean anything in reality. It's an attitude thing.

[Moscow Mule]

pseudo-permie.

Temporary Worker

[malvolio]

I can't agree with that analogy (and the usual plumber/builder analogies in general). If you engaged a plumber to carry out the plumbing work in your house for a period of 6 months, AND expect them to be on site 37.5 hours per week AND be there during busy and quiet periods then the analogy might be more accurate.

(Not that I sign contracts like that of course!!)

QED. Why would you do that? It would be an employment contract and IR35 caught.

Sorry, you have just demonstrated why the analogy holds: I take on contractors to do defined pieces of work and I take on contracts for defined pieces of work. Both may be time limited in some way, usually to simplify the client's budget management. The failure to appreciate the difference between that and a six month turn-up-and-do-what -you're-told-and-please-can-I-have-employee-like-protection is the difference between in and out of IR35. Or, if you prefer, the difference between a freelance and a pseudo-permie.

[NotAllThere]

There are many factors in a contract that make it IR35 caught or otherwise. Notice period can be one of them. You can quit at a day's notice and the client has to give you 90 days, and the contract can still be not caught.

The point is, that if you haven't a notice period, then your contract is less likely to be caught.

It's all about mitigating risk. When the issue was first raised, it did seem that it was the silver bullet. I.e. if you have no notice period, then you are not caught. That doesn't mean that if you have a notice period you are caught.

[ratewhore]

Yep, that's how I understood it. However, people who get hung up about notice periods and insist on them haven't really understood the idea of being in a supplier/client relationship, and can't make the logical leap to compare themselves to a worker that take on to, for example, install a new bathroom: how happy would they be if the installer got bored after four days and told you they were leaving for something better?

I can't agree with that analogy (and the usual plumber/builder analogies in general). If you engaged a plumber to carry out the plumbing work in your house for a period of 6 months, AND expect them to be on site 37.5 hours per week AND be there during busy and quiet periods then the analogy might be more accurate.

(Not that I sign contracts like that of course!!)

[malvolio]

The majority of contracts will have notice periods and, although it's not ideal, it certainly isn't a major factor in determining status. That said, HMRC consider that a mutuality of obligation exists during a lengthy notice period (we set the level at 30+ days), so it's advisable to keep the period as low as possible.

Yep, that's how I understood it. However, people who get hung up about notice periods and insist on them haven't really understood the idea of being in a supplier/client relationship, and can't make the logical leap to compare themselves to a worker that take on to, for example, install a new bathroom: how happy would they be if the installer got bored after four days and told you they were leaving for something better?

[Qdos Contractor]

The majority of contracts will have notice periods and, although it's not ideal, it certainly isn't a major factor in determining status. That said, HMRC consider that a mutuality of obligation exists during a lengthy notice period (we set the level at 30+ days), so it's advisable to keep the period as low as possible.

[ratewhore]

Employees have Notice Periods and cannot be termitated without due process. Contractors don't, and can be terminated immediately if the client so desires. Does that demonstrate the effect on IR35 status clearly enough?

It's not tosh, it's informed expert opinion. Those who have been working with IR35 for the last 9 years aren't just making things up to frighten the kiddies.

There's generally other clauses to give the client and agency the right to terminate immediately. I see nothing wrong with a reciprocal notice period and have insisted on them before (not on my current gig though as my rate is blooming marvellous and it would take a lot for me to serve notice:-))

[MickeyP]

I have a 14 day notice period. Cleared by QDOS.

[VinnyB]

It's not tosh, it's informed expert opinion. Those who have been working with IR35 for the last 9 years aren't just making things up to frighten the kiddies.

I had my contract reviewed by B&C and they cleared a 7 day notice period. They even cleared it when the client asked for this be increased to 28 days for each party on the 3rd extension of the gig. By cleared I mean IR35 safe. I understood B&C were considered among the experts in this field.