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Reply to: Support and IR35
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Previously on "Support and IR35"
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There's nothing to stop you having a contract that says you will fix faults as they arise, in line with business priorities and the agreed SLA between the two companies - i.e. the "fix it now, fit it today, fix it this week" set that all support teams work to, including the 3rd party support groups I use. You are not then under their control, merely adhering to a contractual agreement.
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Originally posted by tim123 View PostI don't agree. This is what you hope is the case, but AIUI there is no case law that says so.
ISTM that simply sitting at a desk and being told "there's a fault, diagnose and fix it now" could be enough D&C to create an employee relationship (and judges have said so in summing up). In order for there to be no D&C you have to have the right to say, "no, I'm not going to do that task today".
Now, I know that people have managed to convince IR people that the above passes the test, but no-one has convinced a judge.
For me I usually get some work and a deadlines then told to trot off and come back when its done. Fairly non-IR35 as the timescales are in the order of months and they don't tell me what to do day to day.
I think its also been agreed that there are a lot of people out there that would be classified as non-IR35 caught yet they are employees.
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If I ask my client to bunch up support requests into related work packages would that help? I am then not a bum on seat fix this issue fix that issue as they arise but a supplier of services fixing work packages that can be estimated for time to be completed ?
Anyone?
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No, no, no you have it all wrong
After finishing your current project, you have chose to take another project that is to maintain and improve a different system in order to remove the current performance and procedural issues and thus provide a better system.
The end client would also like you to document the current system and provide consultancy on improvements.
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Originally posted by malvolio View PostWell yes, not working does rather avoid the need to worry about IR35. Or you could learn how it works and what the criteria are, of course - but where's the fun in that
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Originally posted by Jubber View PostWell, yes if you walked away and straight into another contract.
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Originally posted by tim123 View PostI don't agree. This is what you hope is the case, but AIUI there is no case law that says so.
ISTM that simply sitting at a desk and being told "there's a fault, diagnose and fix it now" could be enough D&C to create an employee relationship (and judges have said so in summing up). In order for there to be no D&C you have to have the right to say, "no, I'm not going to do that task today".
Consider the position of the NHS consultant. Does anybody tell him what to do when he sees a patient? (Nope, he uses his skill and judgment to do this)?
Does anybody tell him which patients to see? (Nope, because as well as being a skilled professional he is also the manager of a team of more junior doctors and he gets to pick which ones he sees and which ones his juniors see).
Is he an employee when wearing his NHS hat? Yes he most certainly is.
Now, I know that people have managed to convince IR people that the above passes the test, but no-one has convinced a judge.
tim
scheduling of support requests which you say is best done by the contractor, or at least having the right to say no to a support request in favor of another.
(Again, something that an employee would have the right to do but I see your point.)
the other is the level of specification on what/how to solve a problem. In the computer fix/harddrive scenario outlined in this thread a contractor would still need to draw on his skills and experience to change the harddrive so the only difference between the two scenarios is a greater level of specification of the problem. In the real world a contractor in a support role is going to get both types of request. So I don't see a real difference with regards to employment status although i see the point you are making
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I'd take the money, get B&C to check the contract if it changes and worry about IR35 as and when the need arose.
Don't let the taxman's tail wag the dog.
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Originally posted by Sockpuppet View PostNo. In a very simple term.
Non IR35: Computer has issues...fix it.
IR35: Computer has issues, hard drive failed....replace it.
ISTM that simply sitting at a desk and being told "there's a fault, diagnose and fix it now" could be enough D&C to create an employee relationship (and judges have said so in summing up). In order for there to be no D&C you have to have the right to say, "no, I'm not going to do that task today".
Consider the position of the NHS consultant. Does anybody tell him what to do when he sees a patient? (Nope, he uses his skill and judgment to do this)?
Does anybody tell him which patients to see? (Nope, because as well as being a skilled professional he is also the manager of a team of more junior doctors and he gets to pick which ones he sees and which ones his juniors see).
Is he an employee when wearing his NHS hat? Yes he most certainly is.
Now, I know that people have managed to convince IR people that the above passes the test, but no-one has convinced a judge.
tim
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Originally posted by hgllgh View PostOriginally posted by Sockpuppet View PostNo. In a very simple term.
Non IR35: Computer has issues...fix it.
IR35: Computer has issues, hard drive failed....replace it.
If a bunch of issues can be packaged up and classed as development work would that help?
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Originally posted by Sockpuppet View PostNo. In a very simple term.
Non IR35: Computer has issues...fix it.
IR35: Computer has issues, hard drive failed....replace it.
If a bunch of issues can be packaged up and classed as development work would that help?
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Originally posted by Fred Bloggs View PostSame happened to me a while ago. I told the client I couldn't integrate and do "day to day" issues. I ended up walking away rather than run the risk. It's the only way to go really to even stand a chance of being outside IR35.
I am of the opinion that work is work and money in the bank, however it is taxed, is much better than no money in the bank.
J
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Originally posted by Fred Bloggs View PostSame happened to me a while ago. I told the client I couldn't integrate and do "day to day" issues. I ended up walking away rather than run the risk. It's the only way to go really to even stand a chance of being outside IR35.
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Same happened to me a while ago. I told the client I couldn't integrate and do "day to day" issues. I ended up walking away rather than run the risk. It's the only way to go really to even stand a chance of being outside IR35.
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No. In a very simple term.
Non IR35: Computer has issues...fix it.
IR35: Computer has issues, hard drive failed....replace it.
Leave a comment:
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