Reply to: Holiday Forms and D & C

[Flat Eric]

That's basically what I have been doing.

I have sent emails to HR and my direct manager informing them of my intended absence from site. I have never had any replies back saying "No" or had and questions asked.

Then out of the blue and email asking us to fill in a holiday request form and get it authorised...

[TheFaQQer]

OK,

The HR department has asked to to get authorisation for all holidays from our line managers and has provided a form for such purposes..

What is the best way to approach this ?

As I said, I've no problem in informing the client of the days that I will not be on site but have never sought approval and up until now they have never required authorisation.

I know the HR lady is completely in the dark regarding IR35 legislation ant doesn't really understand the contractor-agent-client relationship. She sees us as employees.

I'm inclined to simply dump this in the agents lap and have them earn their %age but I also think the agent will simply side with the client. I'm no IR35 expert either but I'm sure that there would be ramifications for the agent should I be found to be under an IR35 contract although this may not be the case.

If they insist on this form being filled in and authorisation sought then probably going to have to terminate and ask for a renegotiation as my rate would have to rise to cover the risk.

Thoughts?

Mark.

Send it to your line manager - i.e. you

Inform the client verbally of when you will not be available, but beyond that I wouldn't do anything. The person you work closest with on the project (what permies might call a "boss" or "manager") should then do whatever their organization needs to do to record that fact, if anything.

If you are found inside IR35, it's nothing to do with the agency - it's all down to you as an individual.

[Flat Eric]

Coming to a head....

OK,

The HR department has asked to to get authorisation for all holidays from our line managers and has provided a form for such purposes..

What is the best way to approach this ?

As I said, I've no problem in informing the client of the days that I will not be on site but have never sought approval and up until now they have never required authorisation.

I know the HR lady is completely in the dark regarding IR35 legislation ant doesn't really understand the contractor-agent-client relationship. She sees us as employees.

I'm inclined to simply dump this in the agents lap and have them earn their %age but I also think the agent will simply side with the client. I'm no IR35 expert either but I'm sure that there would be ramifications for the agent should I be found to be under an IR35 contract although this may not be the case.

If they insist on this form being filled in and authorisation sought then probably going to have to terminate and ask for a renegotiation as my rate would have to rise to cover the risk.

Thoughts?

Mark.

[NotAllThere]

Only if your company is working direct to the client. If through an EB, then contact them on the headed paper instead, because your contract is with them not the end client. Then the EB can inform the client of any of your company absences.

Quite right, this is exactly how it should work. And in most of the contracts I had in the UK through agencies, it was written so into the contract.

Naturally, you should also informally inform the client, because that relationship is paramaount.

However, it occurs to me that if we followed the correct procedure the chances of the agency actual informing the client are slim.

[Denny]

...and I've been employing PMs for about 15...

No sweat, I was just clarifying matters for the less experienced among us.

I assume that you are only one grade below God then.

[mailric]

Can't see why one should not notify a client when you will not be around as a matter of curtesy though, else how can they plan properly? You would expect a builder doing your kitchen to tell you if he had to stop the job for a week. Like a lot of things this is not a real indicator of employment, but the stinking IR insist on treating it as though it is.

would you really expdect a builder to let you know when and when not they were turning up??? i need the number for your builder.

[malvolio]

...and I've been employing PMs for about 15...

No sweat, I was just clarifying matters for the less experienced among us.

[Denny]

Theoretically true, but I would be pretty upset if one of my team failed to let me know they weren't going to be in, and they would be likely to find their "leave" to have been extended rather more permanently. I don't trust most EBs to sort out renewals on time, much less manage clerical details at that level.

There is a saying that you shouldn't let the taxation tail wag the business dog. Keeping your end client happy and informed - even if informally and supported by formal notice - is probably slightly more relevant to ongoing income protection.

There's nothing theoretically true about it Mal. It's realistically true. The problems of a contractor putting in letterhead to the end client their absences from billing is likely to either (a) be put in the bin with a cheery thanks or (b) be filed with HR. Both are disasterous. If HMRC do a check on these thingsduring an investigation they will want to know why the contractor was agreeing terms with the end client which will put them on their 'de facto employee alert radar.'

I was referring to the formal arrangements only in my answer. But, seriously, Mal, do you honesty think I would suggest that a contractor takes off simply by writing on letterhead to the EB without having first informally said something to the PM? Provided that informal notification doesnt' amount to a permission, it would be a much better idea to inform the PM otherwise the EB will simply ring the contractor on receiving the notification and ask if the PM has approved it (likely attitude of an EB who is bound to see it as a permission) before accepting it as a formal notification they can place on file. The last thing they want to do is upset their client reps.

Do credit me with some intelligence. I have been a PM myself for nearly 8 years.

[malvolio]

Only if your company is working direct to the client. If through an EB, then contact them on the headed paper instead, because your contract is with them not the end client. Then the EB can inform the client of any of your company absences. ...

Theoretically true, but I would be pretty upset if one of my team failed to let me know they weren't going to be in, and they would be likely to find their "leave" to have been extended rather more permanently. I don't trust most EBs to sort out renewals on time, much less manage clerical details at that level.

There is a saying that you shouldn't let the taxation tail wag the business dog. Keeping your end client happy and informed - even if informally and supported by formal notice - is probably slightly more relevant to ongoing income protection.

[Denny]

That's a good attitude. Going native is a bad thing for many reasons, only one of which is IR35. If there are any bigger suppliers on site, maybe use whatever they do as a guide. A communication on your own branded stationery, telling them what they need to know, ought to send out the right signals.

Only if your company is working direct to the client. If through an EB, then contact them on the headed paper instead, because your contract is with them not the end client. Then the EB can inform the client of any of your company absences. Your direct association with the end client should only be about the work for which your company is supplying services, as this kind of D&C is different from the ir35 D&C HMRC get in such a flap about, and is what gives rise to EBs being EBs as opposed to a service consultancy staffed to work for the end-client who would otherwise direct you on deliverables.

Same principle as what applies to travel expenses. This should also be through the EB with VAT added, if your co is VAT registered, not on co letterhead direct to the client for payment, or reimbursed penny for penny on client admin forms.

[thunderlizard]

I'm not suggesting that I don't inform the client. I just don't want to be filling in their forms which are the same ones that the permies are required to fill in.

That's a good attitude. Going native is a bad thing for many reasons, only one of which is IR35. If there are any bigger suppliers on site, maybe use whatever they do as a guide. A communication on your own branded stationery, telling them what they need to know, ought to send out the right signals.

[SteveV]

What does D&C stand for?

I thought it was a medical term for a scarpe...

<shudders>

direction and control

[BrilloPad]

What does D&C stand for?

I thought it was a medical term for a scrape...

<shudders>

[Flat Eric]

I'm not suggesting that I don't inform the client. I just don't want to be filling in their forms which are the same ones that the permies are required to fill in.

[Denny]

Can't see why one should not notify a client when you will not be around as a matter of curtesy though, else how can they plan properly? You would expect a builder doing your kitchen to tell you if he had to stop the job for a week. Like a lot of things this is not a real indicator of employment, but the stinking IR insist on treating it as though it is.

I don't think I was suggesting that you don't notify the client and just take off without a word. That is the point: you just notify them. You don't give status updates on your plans for when you will be in and out on a weekly basis. Does your builder ever do that? No, of course not.