Reply to: Ha de ha ha - Tory policies

[zathras]

I also remember the headlines about the bodies in the morgues, seeing the green goddesses etc (I was 10).

Too much of that has now passed into the national psyche and just gets trotted out as accepted fact

I'm assuming that you think this was an urban myth by that comment. Far from it.

Leicester Square was piled up with Rubbish when used as an emergency refuse center see http://www.bbc.co.uk/cult/ilove/year.../rubbish.shtml

Gravediggers went on strike in Liverpool & Tameside; prompting one local health official said that burials at sea were being considered if the strike became prolonged (see http://libcom.org/history/1978-1979-...-of-discontent). This strike meant that bodies were not being buried while it occured. (see http://www.answers.com/topic/winter-of-discontent).

So these stories were by no means mythical.

The increasing unemployment that occured at the start of Mrs Thatcher's regime was in part caused by correcting the failures of the previous administration. Our industry had become inefficient and bedevilled by regulation. It cost far more to produce an item in the UK than other places. Had our industry not been streamlined then it was going to fail or take increasing amounts of Government subsidy.

When the Tories came to power unemployment was increasing, we had high inflation, productivity was abysmal and the country was known as the sick man of Europe.

When they left power inflation and unemployment were going down as were interest rates. Our industry was so efficient that Nissan described it's Sunderland Plant as one if not the most efficient in the whole group. We were going up the productivity tables as well

If you look at the Tories through the prism of the press at the time you got none of this, just endless stories about ministers jumping into bed with people
not all of whom were their own spouses! This 'sleeze' was then associated with the Tories from then. Very little however was financial (OK Cash for Questions is one of the few exceptions to that).

Now here we are after 10 years of Labour Inflation and interest rates are going up. Unemployment is at best stagnant. Productivity is down, taxes are up and despite all the extra money being spent; Children are still entering Secondary School illiterate, nurses and doctors are still being made redundant. The State takes even more of our money so the overall tax burden has gone up under Labour (over 40%) and is due to overtake Germany - if it has not already.

This country was in a far better state when John Major left office and it is not nearly in so good a condition now after 10 years of New Labour.

[richard-af]

Impressed with this thread and the lucidity compared to the usual dross.

How very dare you!

[mjshrimpton]

Been babysitting (good rates and you get to pretend to be the Crazy Frogs car which is fun.........)

Impressed with this thread and the lucidity compared to the usual dross.

Not sure about the IMF bailout being entirely the governments fault, as there were several things all going on at the same time, including the global financial markets attitude to anything left wing at the time (which is another reason GB cosied up to them once in power), but that was a tulip government and no mistake, and is happily consigned to the dustbin of history.

I just happen to think the tories were a shower as well, and dont believe they will repeal IR35.

I also remember the headlines about the bodies in the morgues, seeing the green goddesses etc (I was 10).

Too much of that has now passed into the national psyche and just gets trotted out as accepted fact in the same way that K*****n M****zies falsehoods on the hillsboro tragedy have become fact when they were lies spun by the powers that be, pure and simple, as has been proven many times over.

Congrats to all for a good fact and opinion laden debate, and no personal slanging, but no-one has come up with the killer comment to make me believe regime change will be any good, for the country as a whole, or contractors as the selfish individuals GB would like to think we are.

[Ardesco]

One thing that makes me wonder is this obsession with the base rate of interest.

It would be interesting to take the relevant base rates of interest and work out the respective costs in both £ and % of gross pay. Then compare this to the amount of tax taken from gross pay (again £ and %) and see how much your average joe had left over at the end of the month.

I suspect that once you take everything into account most people will find that they have a larger amount of money left at the end of the month to piss up the wall before Nu Liemore got into power, however that is just a guess.

Anybody want to work out the figures?

[Anderson]

Zathras, I commend your knowledge of the figures.

The problem I have is that I don't know if the Tories would've done any better over the past 10 years, and equally would do any better over the next 10 years. Both parties seem prone to the same errors in power, and quote equally wonderful solutions when in opposition.

There seems to be very little these days to differentiate between Labour and Conservative parties. I personally can't take Cameron seriously and I just know that GB is sure to screw contractors even more further down the line.

As they say, whoever you vote for the government always gets in...

[zathras]

Are you really comparing the current Labour government with the one in 1979?

General comment on this thread. Isn't it so annoying how 'spin' can be used to make either party look great. But who do you really believe..... don't ask me!

As far as the last Tory government is concerned, I remember as a teen the interest rates being above 10% for at least 4 or 5 years. But that was nearly 20 years ago.

On a purely selfish level I think that I would be better off under a tory government. Not that I think they will win the next election anyway.

In away, it is just the current one is far better had hiding it's failings. New Labour has become masterful at controlling the news outlets (helped no doubt by the fact it wooed Murdoch who controls the best selling Red Top and Quality Newspaper). Look behind the rosy figures that the government talk up and it is not nearly as good. For example most growth in the Economy has come from a combination of increased government spending and immigration. Indeed considering immigration many are taking low paid jobs and the current figures that show how many extra people are employed makes no mention the value of those jobs.

Regulation and taxes have gone up. As did previous Labour Governments. No mention is made of our relative position in productivity league tables because our position has got steadily worse.

In 2005 1.7% British growth rate was about 0.8 points below the consensus forecast of a year ago, the biggest shortfall since 1992.

In 2005/6 The number of people claiming unemployment benefit rose for 10 months in a row, the worst run since 1992, inflation overshot expectations and was higher than GDP growth for the first time since 1992. Business investment as a percentage of GDP in 2005 was the lowest for 40 years.

Between 2000 and 2005, public sector employment rose by 556,000, an increase of 10.5%, according to the official statistics from the ONS, (excluding consultants, GPs and employees of Network Rail). Over the same period, private sector employment rose by 625,000, an increase of only 2.8%. In reality, a significant minority of these new, supposedly private sector jobs, also depend on government spending for their survival. (approx 1 in 4 are now employed directly or indirectly by the government)

One in three households across Britain is now dependent on the state for at least half its income

The NHS is estimated to loose 37,000 jobs this year leading to shortages of 14,000 nurses 1,200 GP's and 1,100 Jnr Doctors in 3 years. This from a government which was headed by a man quoted as saying '24 hours to save the NHS'.

Life under New Labour is not nearly as rosy as it is painted - we are now an indebted nation, people are unable to afford homes.

And the boom. Manufactured by the BoE to stop the country going into a recession caused by 9/11. So admitted Eddie George the former Chairman of the BoE.


Have not even begun to talk about the cronyism and corruption which seems to lie at the heart of New Labour. The Tories may not have been complete angels but for a party which came to power on a wave of euphoria New Labour has hardly been without fault.

[Anderson]

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you are too young to remember the 1979 Labour Government.

Are you really comparing the current Labour government with the one in 1979?

General comment on this thread. Isn't it so annoying how 'spin' can be used to make either party look great. But who do you really believe..... don't ask me!

As far as the last Tory government is concerned, I remember as a teen the interest rates being above 10% for at least 4 or 5 years. But that was nearly 20 years ago.

On a purely selfish level I think that I would be better off under a tory government. Not that I think they will win the next election anyway.

[zathras]

I am not giving GB or Labour any respect - he has ridden the coat tails of a benign global situation, and is mendacious when it comes to taking personal advantage of the rules, as has been discussed ad nauseam.

But

Black Wednesday
Base Interest rates > 10%
> 3 million unemployed

None of these were anything other than the results of tory policy, and dont bring to mind a well run and stable economy to me.

Careful or you are going to get another History Lesson. But taken as a whole 'Black Wednesday' was in a large part due to problems within EU and currency speculators who bet against sterling.

Yes interests went over 10% but they were not for the full 18 years of Tory rule and compare with interest rates in other countries

As for the > 3 million unemployed

Strange but 2 million suddenly were not unemployed when Tony Blair became PM. Further the number of economically inactive people has increased to such an extent that the true number of unemployed is actually higher than that under Labour. Labour also had the longest run of increasing unemployment since the 1991/92 recession. When Labour came to power Inflation and Unemployment were going down, our growth was increasing, this country was attracting increased amounts of inward investment. Now inflation is above targets, manufacturing has been reducing employment levels for almost all of Labours time in office (as well as the near years worth of increasing unemployment mentioned earlier). Interest rates have been going up, and we attract less inward investment compared with competitors and have been going down the league tables. Productivity is also going down.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you are too young to remember the 1979 Labour Government.

Rubbish was left in piles in the street. Even the dead were not being buried. The IMF had to step in and control the spending. Our industry was bedevilled by outdated costly practices (why else do you think unemployment went up once those practices were changed).

[richard-af]

Not to mention a lot of economists now see black wednesday as a good thing for our economy in the long term despite the short term losses that were incurred.

It was, in retrospect, a bit of a big nothing. Individuals lost out, but they'd been as daft as the loons currently getting wobbly rate mortgages and credit. So their own fault, really.

[mjshrimpton]

I think you are missing the point, which is that the real level of unemployment today is just as as it was then with no prospect of it getting better and double the people claiming benefits from the government. Black Wednesday was bad at the time, however in the grand scheme of things is was a blip in an otherwise well run and highly successful economy that fixed the screw ups of the Labour government from 1974-1979. If the tories had been left to run the economy we would probably be in an even better situation today.

Fair enough - did not pick up on the detail in that point.

I will come on here and eat a virtual hat if they get rid of IR35, if they get elected.

Now if someone could do an icon........

[Ardesco]

0.9m unemployed officially, about 1.5m hidden from the count by various devious schemes, another 0.5m or so illegally working - so the real unemployment figure is actually around 2.9m. 6m are drawing benefits in one shape or form.

So - dont worry about losing your job, home, self-respect, it is all for the greater good....and when the plan comes together everything will be OK.

I think you are missing the point, which is that the real level of unemployment today is just as as it was then with no prospect of it getting better and double the people claiming benefits from the government. Black Wednesday was bad at the time, however in the grand scheme of things is was a blip in an otherwise well run and highly successful economy that fixed the screw ups of the Labour government from 1974-1979. If the tories had been left to run the economy we would probably be in an even better situation today.

[mjshrimpton]

Not to mention a lot of economists now see black wednesday as a good thing for our economy in the long term despite the short term losses that were incurred.

Which is a side effect to the utter shambolics of the day and the people taking the decisions, nothing more nothing less.

3 m unemployed - agreed, but directly as a result of an intentional and predicted three-year downturn while the economy was being re-directed, after which it went down to a genuine 1.2m

So - dont worry about losing your job, home, self-respect, it is all for the greater good....and when the plan comes together everything will be OK.



If you read my posts, I have not been attempting to claim tory = bad, labour = good, I just dont buy the idea that regime change will change anything at all.

They are as bad as each other at managing the economy, telling the truth, delivering on election manifestos, and neither get my vote.

I just dont believe for one second that the tories will repeal IR35. Keeping the status quo may be the best thing for most people, as there is a tried and tested way of working outside of it, all covered by various levels of insurance, and anecdotally it looks like Hector has other targets.

It has been good to have a level of debate above the usual spam about MSC's

Off to listen to Toulouse get a caning.

[Ardesco]

Not to mention a lot of economists now see black wednesday as a good thing for our economy in the long term despite the short term losses that were incurred.

[malvolio]

But

Black Wednesday
Base Interest rates > 10%
> 3 million unemployed

None of these were anything other than the results of tory policy, and dont bring to mind a well run and stable economy to me.

LEt's have a little perspective here:

Toryworld:
Base intrest rates at 10% but rapidly heading downwards to around 4%, trade deficit closing, government borrowing reducing, overall tax burden reducing - and in the face of a worldwide recession

3 m unemployed - agreed, but directly as a result of an intentional and predicted three-year downturn while the economy was being re-directed, after which it went down to a genuine 1.2m


NLWorld:
Base rate 6% and climbing, 30% of UK's income being generate by the City, trade deficit through the roof, borrowing increasing, tax burden increased by 12% overall already and still rising - and in the face of a worldwide boom

0.9m unemployed officially, about 1.5m hidden from the count by various devious schemes, another 0.5m or so illegally working - so the real unemployment figure is actually around 2.9m. 6m are drawing benefits in one shape or form.


Not quite so clever in those terms is it?

[mjshrimpton]

IMHO the tories may not have better policies or much more integrety, but the one thing they can do very well is run the economy. Nu Liemore are tulipe at running the economy, and god forbid we get the Lib Dems in power....

I am not giving GB or Labour any respect - he has ridden the coat tails of a benign global situation, and is mendacious when it comes to taking personal advantage of the rules, as has been discussed ad nauseam.

But

Black Wednesday
Base Interest rates > 10%
> 3 million unemployed

None of these were anything other than the results of tory policy, and dont bring to mind a well run and stable economy to me.