Reply to: Do you think there's still a compelling reason to use a "Contract" accountancy?

[Roll Out The Farrell]

Vote with your feet. Anything that removes business from the private equity vulture funded firms is a good thing. They are trading on client inertia and don't deserve your business.

Yes, once they've done my EOY accounts I'm pulling the plug. It's a shame, they did actually used to be very good. I also have my suspicions that they've offshored some of their operations too.

[Fred Bloggs]

Glad I saw this thread as I was about to start a similar one.

I've been using one of the main "contract" accountancy firms since 2010 & they've gone way down hill, to be sure.

They had some kind of restructuring a couple of years back and I lost my regular guy who was actually very good. Now response times are awful and they leave everything to the last minute and even got my last VAT return wrong. My assigned "accountant" also couldn't give me any advice on capital gains as it was out of his remit.

What's the point in paying £120 pcm for that kind of service? I may as well just use a local outfit and get them to bill me by the hour.

Vote with your feet. Anything that removes business from the private equity vulture funded firms is a good thing. They are trading on client inertia and don't deserve your business.

[Roll Out The Farrell]

Glad I saw this thread as I was about to start a similar one.

I've been using one of the main "contract" accountancy firms since 2010 & they've gone way down hill, to be sure.

They had some kind of restructuring a couple of years back and I lost my regular guy who was actually very good. Now response times are awful and they leave everything to the last minute and even got my last VAT return wrong. My assigned "accountant" also couldn't give me any advice on capital gains as it was out of his remit.

What's the point in paying £120 pcm for that kind of service? I may as well just use a local outfit and get them to bill me by the hour.

[d000hg]

The 1 person company packages will as much be about how readily you can quote a fixed price without knowing much more about the business. For businesses of all shapes and sizes "how much do you charge for accounts" isn't a question that can be answered without finding out a lot more info first. Clients want to know what they'll pay without having to divulge lots of info/sit through a sales pitch.

Accountants typically tell you a fixed set of services you'll get in this package, and restrictions - if you don't fit the cookie-cutter this would become clear quite early on.

When I've approached local accountants, I've been invited for a chat to talk more about what I want/need before anyone quotes/commits to anything. Whereas I've never had any "contractor accountant" ask me anything about my business (even the ones I am happy with). Again, you buy a standard package although in my experience they (the good ones at least) will flex on this a bit. A fixed price introduces some risk for the accountant but they presumably realise it averages out in the same way a builder quoting fixed price for jobs knows some will throw up additional costs, others will be easier than expected.

[Maslins]

Contractor accountancy seems to be far more common with local accountants these days - when we've approached local firms they all have "1 man company" packages. Other than IR35, is there much specific to contracting? And IR35 is not really your accountant's job anyway, though some firms will offer services - contract review is not accountancy.

The 1 person company packages will as much be about how readily you can quote a fixed price without knowing much more about the business. For businesses of all shapes and sizes "how much do you charge for accounts" isn't a question that can be answered without finding out a lot more info first. Clients want to know what they'll pay without having to divulge lots of info/sit through a sales pitch.

More generally on this thread...as an accountant, it is painful to read. The last 5+ years have seen countless posts on this forum about how "now FreeAgent does all the hard work you should pay naff all to your accountants". Understandably many contractors will struggle to tell the difference between accountancy firm X that'll do your accounts and tax returns, and accountancy firm Y that'll do your accounts and tax returns. If X charges half the fee Y charges, the contractor will likely go with X. No criticism from me there, if I was in that situation and couldn't tell the difference, I'd do the same. X will need to make a profit, so can only operate at that fee level by having a very limited number of very junior unqualified staff. Responses to queries will therefore be slow and/or questionable, mistakes are made, and contractor comes on here saying "accountants are all rubbish" to much cheer.

[Fred Bloggs]

I must admit I am starting to wonder what the hell is the point of accountants. I already swapped from DNS (who were so useless it is hard to put into words) to intouch and I am still not really getting what I would like from this type of service. I would like to trust my accountant and not have to check everything after them because they keep making mistakes. If my time is spent on babysitting my accountant anyway - what is the point? Might as well do everything myself.

Exactly the conclusion I came to. And these days there's FreeAgent. There's very little excuse for book keeping mistakes these days because the contractor runs FreeAgent anyway. Not only is it dead simple. It's in the contractor's interest to get it right. DIY isn't for everyone, but it can certainly work.

[cannon999]

And that's great. Long ago, I got sick and tired of checking everything accountants did and always finding howlers. One year to the extent of several £000 where dividends had been reported as salary. I decided with the systems now available that I could do the job better myself and it was all my responsibility anyway at the end of the day. For my last contracting venture I did everything myself from creating the company through to striking it off (in the next few weeks after the 2nd Gazette notice) at the end of it's useful life. It was incredibly easy. But I did keep the company very, very simple to help facilitate that. DIY is not for everyone, for me it was absolutely fine. The £1k fees, I'll keep thanks!

I must admit I am starting to wonder what the hell is the point of accountants. I already swapped from DNS (who were so useless it is hard to put into words) to intouch and I am still not really getting what I would like from this type of service. I would like to trust my accountant and not have to check everything after them because they keep making mistakes. If my time is spent on babysitting my accountant anyway - what is the point? Might as well do everything myself.

[Fred Bloggs]

Contractor accountancy seems to be far more common with local accountants these days - when we've approached local firms they all have "1 man company" packages. Other than IR35, is there much specific to contracting? And IR35 is not really your accountant's job anyway, though some firms will offer services - contract review is not accountancy.

Interesting. I presume it's the wide adoption of FreeAgent that has precipitated that as a side effect? IMO - Anything that takes business away from the huge sausage machine practises that were once the default option, but are now private equity cash cows, can only be a good thing.

[d000hg]

Contractor accountancy seems to be far more common with local accountants these days - when we've approached local firms they all have "1 man company" packages. Other than IR35, is there much specific to contracting? And IR35 is not really your accountant's job anyway, though some firms will offer services - contract review is not accountancy.

[jamesbrown]

Thanks. I actually never met anyone who could say that an accountant had saved them more than (or even the same as) their fee. I think it's only accountants who say it.

In terms of tax advice or the like, agree, no way. I was thinking more like raw hours that I could be billing, but if you don't mind doing it in your spare time, there is probably little value in an accountant as a seasoned contractor.

[Fred Bloggs]

Yes, this is totally fair. You almost certainly did do a better job.

On the other hand, the level of mistakes I see relative to the productive work done and what it would cost me to do it myself is balanced in favour of the accountant for now. If I had (another) experience like yours, that would probably change. When I last had that experience, I was only a couple of years in and too much of a n00b to ditch the accountant altogether, but you eventually get to a point where you could replace them, no problem, so it's purely an objective cost/benefit thing from that point onwards (are they saving you or costing you).

Thanks. I actually never met anyone who could say that an accountant had saved them more than (or even the same as) their fee. I think it's only accountants who say it.

[jamesbrown]

And that's great. Long ago, I got sick and tired of checking everything accountants did and always finding howlers. One year to the extent of several £000 where dividends had been reported as salary. I decided with the systems now available that I could do the job better myself and it was all my responsibility anyway at the end of the day. For my last contracting venture I did everything myself from creating the company through to striking it off (in the next few weeks after the 2nd Gazette notice) at the end of it's useful life. It was incredibly easy. But I did keep the company very, very simple to help facilitate that. DIY is not for everyone, for me it was absolutely fine. The £1k fees, I'll keep thanks!

Yes, this is totally fair. You almost certainly did do a better job.

On the other hand, the level of mistakes I see relative to the productive work done and what it would cost me to do it myself is balanced in favour of the accountant for now. If I had (another) experience like yours, that would probably change. When I last had that experience, I was only a couple of years in and too much of a n00b to ditch the accountant altogether, but you eventually get to a point where you could replace them, no problem, so it's purely an objective cost/benefit thing from that point onwards (are they saving you or costing you).

[Fred Bloggs]

I keep an accountant on because I like the independent look over the numbers at the end of the year. I picked up a minor mistake of a fiver this year but usually they're pretty good.

I probably could do it myself as there's nothing tricky or complicated going on.

I bet you could, but DIY is not everyone's cup of tea.

[Fred Bloggs]

This. The only reason I continue to use one is that their time (e.g., in preparing returns) is cheaper than my time, but if I had more time on my hands, I wouldn't bother. I frequently find mistakes, so I doubt the quality of the work would deteriorate to be brutally honest. Not that I am complaining, because you generally get what you pay for and I think I am getting what I pay for. Contractor accountants that use FA are charging something in the vicinity of £1k per year, which is absolutely feck all when you think about it.

And that's great. Long ago, I got sick and tired of checking everything accountants did and always finding howlers. One year to the extent of several £000 where dividends had been reported as salary. I decided with the systems now available that I could do the job better myself and it was all my responsibility anyway at the end of the day. For my last contracting venture I did everything myself from creating the company through to striking it off (in the next few weeks after the 2nd Gazette notice) at the end of it's useful life. It was incredibly easy. But I did keep the company very, very simple to help facilitate that. DIY is not for everyone, for me it was absolutely fine. The £1k fees, I'll keep thanks!

[ladymuck]

I keep an accountant on because I like the independent look over the numbers at the end of the year. I picked up a minor mistake of a fiver this year but usually they're pretty good.

I probably could do it myself as there's nothing tricky or complicated going on.