Reply to: Allowable expenses - university training

[jayn200]

You can call it whatever you want, it doesn't make it science. I am not sure you have any idea what 'science' actually is. Actually wikipedia does say that it isn't a science, it's a field or a 'concept' as it is being referred to there. Comparing it to maths or statistics or computer science is laughable really. We have a 'data scientist' at my place - I am pretty certain this title is just a creative way to avoid hiring proper developers (and hence avoiding paying for proper developers).

You don't know what you don't know.

You would never hire a developer as a data scientist. It's statistics first and programming is just the tool you use. You need a subject matter expert in the role and the subject matter expertise is statistics, it's not programming. It's relatively easy to learn the very minimal amount of coding you need to do data science. Again these guys are not data architects, bi engineers, etc they don't need much technical ability.

Call it a science or don't, I don't care but the degree absolutely will help in the field. In fact it might not even be enough as the top employers probably would prefer to hire PhDs.

[cannon999]

Has someone hit the sherry early?

Lots of things can be called a science if their methodologies are repeatable.

Ooh look wikipedia doesn't say it isn't a science... it's a heck of a lot more tangible than psychology or sociology

You can call it whatever you want, it doesn't make it science. I am not sure you have any idea what 'science' actually is. Actually wikipedia does say that it isn't a science, it's a field or a 'concept' as it is being referred to there. Comparing it to maths or statistics or computer science is laughable really. We have a 'data scientist' at my place - I am pretty certain this title is just a creative way to avoid hiring proper developers (and hence avoiding paying for proper developers).

[lecyclist]

Unfortunately OP, as others have said, a degree is not a legitimate business expense in the UK. No one has commented on whether it can be partially expensed (with a personal BIK and business specificity element), but again I suspect the answer would be 'no'.

An alternative to consider, is to identify a service provider with a more specific shorter term course directly related to your work. The emphasis is specificity again.

[Craig@Clarity]

I was thinking to apply for a part time master degree in data science to keep up to date and strengthen some of my skills. Do you believe that this would be considered as an allowable expense? If yes, would I be able to claim back VAT as well?

Is wholly, exclusive and necessary in the performance of the duties of the employment? If not, then no it's not deductible as an expense under ITEPA 2003, s. 336

[ladymuck]

Can you stop calling it a science? It is not a science. It is even more laughable to talk about MSc or PhD in data science. The list of schientific subjects is well established Branches of science - Wikipedia

What you are talking about is applied computer science. Regardless of what you want to call it - if it involves writing code which if it is not throw away code and needs maintaining you need proper software developers to do that, not academics who tinker with a bit of python here and there.

Has someone hit the sherry early?

Lots of things can be called a science if their methodologies are repeatable.

Ooh look wikipedia doesn't say it isn't a science... it's a heck of a lot more tangible than psychology or sociology

[cannon999]

Again your skipping over the data science part and just going to your IT experience.

Data science is not data engineering.

Data science is not business intelligence.

Data science is not programming/software development.

Data science does not really fall under IT.

Data science is the programmatic application of statistical scientific methods traditionally used in academia/research... So it makes sense to learn those skills from people in academia/research.

Again I reiterate more than 50% of postings explicitly state requirement of MSc or PhD in stats/math/data science.

There are still some people out there calling bi and data engineering roles data science because they don't know what it means but those are not what you will learn in an MSc in data science. It's mostly statistics/maths and python/r and possibly a bit around some basic data skills.

Can you stop calling it a science? It is not a science. It is even more laughable to talk about MSc or PhD in data science. The list of schientific subjects is well established Branches of science - Wikipedia

What you are talking about is applied computer science. Regardless of what you want to call it - if it involves writing code which if it is not throw away code and needs maintaining you need proper software developers to do that, not academics who tinker with a bit of python here and there.

[ladymuck]

Again your skipping over the data science part and just going to your IT experience.

Data science is not data engineering.

Data science is not business intelligence.

Data science is not programming/software development.

Data science does not really fall under IT.

Data science is the programmatic application of statistical scientific methods traditionally used in academia/research... So it makes sense to learn those skills from people in academia/research.

Again I reiterate more than 50% of postings explicitly state requirement of MSc or PhD in stats/math/data science.

There are still some people out there calling bi and data engineering roles data science because they don't know what it means but those are not what you will learn in an MSc in data science. It's mostly statistics/maths and python/r and possibly a bit around some basic data skills.

Wow my clock must be broken, you've posted something that makes sense!

Now all you need to do is master the difference between your and you're.

Handy reminder:
"You're going to regret putting your balls in that vice"

[jayn200]

I am not sure which job postings you are referring to, they certainly won't be software development related. Very rarely I see contracts posted that require any sort of educational qualifications (although that does happen). It depends on what your aspirations are in your career. If you want to make money, then MSc and Phd are a completely idiotic thing to get. That's just extra 5-6 years that you could be earning £££ growing your wealth and beefing up your CV with real work instead of getting into more debt and learning f-all to do with the real world. If you are interested in a career in education then there is nothing wrong with going into further studies.

I was already working for a company by the time I was in my 3rd year of university (part time) and that company tried to convince me to quit uni to work for them full time because they clearly already saw me as a capable developer. I, of-course, stuck to it and finished the degree but nobody has ever asked me to see my diploma and I don't even know where it is at this point.

Also as a very skilled software developer you will already have a logical mind inclined to solve problems so maths/statistics should not be an issue. There isn't a single strong developer I know who hasn't excelled at maths in their studies. Obviously I am not talking about the grey-haired developers who now make money just by shaking their CV that has 20 years worth of 'experience'.


Again I am only speaking for my line of work. Others may have different experience. My opinion is that going to university if you already have an established career is lunacy.

Again your skipping over the data science part and just going to your IT experience.

Data science is not data engineering.

Data science is not business intelligence.

Data science is not programming/software development.

Data science does not really fall under IT.

Data science is the programmatic application of statistical scientific methods traditionally used in academia/research... So it makes sense to learn those skills from people in academia/research.

Again I reiterate more than 50% of postings explicitly state requirement of MSc or PhD in stats/math/data science.

There are still some people out there calling bi and data engineering roles data science because they don't know what it means but those are not what you will learn in an MSc in data science. It's mostly statistics/maths and python/r and possibly a bit around some basic data skills.

[Lance]

I was thinking to apply for a part time master degree in data science to keep up to date and strengthen some of my skills.

Those two highlighted are mutually exclusive in my experience of anything IT.
If it was maths, physics or other academic study then maybe university would be ahead of the curve.
But for most things IT, business is at least 5 years ahead of academia.

[malvolio]

I can see the point in a detailed knowledge of statistics, which is full of traps for the unwary, especially when dealing with large and often fairly random datasets. It's not about logic, unlike coding, it's way more complicated than breaking problems into sequential stages.

But that said I have to agree with the others. By all means get a degree but do it offline. Outside HMG, nobody really cares about degrees, only experience and quantifiable success. Also the tax rules mean it's not claimable anyway - at its simplest, you can only build on knowledge you already have, not acquire new stuff. If you're already in data science then clearly you have the skills already.

[cannon999]

Did you go into data science?

Half the job postings specifically ask for a MSc or Phd in math/statistics/data science. As a field it's not equivalent to programming.

It's 50% statistics/math 50% programming. They actually generally don't care if you're self taught on the programming side (Which matches with your experience) but generally do care that you are traditionally taught math/statistics.

It is a fairly new field though so not every employer/client is able to be as picky as they like as there is a massive skill shortage but it's definitely not the same type of situation going on as programming.

I am not sure which job postings you are referring to, they certainly won't be software development related. Very rarely I see contracts posted that require any sort of educational qualifications (although that does happen). It depends on what your aspirations are in your career. If you want to make money, then MSc and Phd are a completely idiotic thing to get. That's just extra 5-6 years that you could be earning £££ growing your wealth and beefing up your CV with real work instead of getting into more debt and learning f-all to do with the real world. If you are interested in a career in education then there is nothing wrong with going into further studies.

I was already working for a company by the time I was in my 3rd year of university (part time) and that company tried to convince me to quit uni to work for them full time because they clearly already saw me as a capable developer. I, of-course, stuck to it and finished the degree but nobody has ever asked me to see my diploma and I don't even know where it is at this point.

Also as a very skilled software developer you will already have a logical mind inclined to solve problems so maths/statistics should not be an issue. There isn't a single strong developer I know who hasn't excelled at maths in their studies. Obviously I am not talking about the grey-haired developers who now make money just by shaking their CV that has 20 years worth of 'experience'.


Again I am only speaking for my line of work. Others may have different experience. My opinion is that going to university if you already have an established career is lunacy.

[GhostofTarbera]

No employer (uni excluded) gives a toss about uni degrees (except for recent grads 20 year olds not people above 22) over 30 it just looks desperate


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[jayn200]

As somebody who has fairly recently (6 years ago) got a degree in Computer Science (1st) from a fairly known university (Russel Group uni), I can confirm that it was fairly useless for my line of work (Software Development & Consulting). It was really useful for getting me through that first door - after that nobody cares. Skill wise I am not sure what you could possibly learn at university that would help you if you already have a well established career. People who went on to do Masters and further went into teaching.

Did you go into data science?

Half the job postings specifically ask for a MSc or Phd in math/statistics/data science. As a field it's not equivalent to programming.

It's 50% statistics/math 50% programming. They actually generally don't care if you're self taught on the programming side (Which matches with your experience) but generally do care that you are traditionally taught math/statistics.

It is a fairly new field though so not every employer/client is able to be as picky as they like as there is a massive skill shortage but it's definitely not the same type of situation going on as programming.

[cannon999]

As somebody who has fairly recently (6 years ago) got a degree in Computer Science (1st) from a fairly known university (Russel Group uni), I can confirm that it was fairly useless for my line of work (Software Development & Consulting). It was really useful for getting me through that first door - after that nobody cares. Skill wise I am not sure what you could possibly learn at university that would help you if you already have a well established career. People who went on to do Masters and further went into teaching.

[jayn200]

It's not an allowable expense. There is no way around it that I could find, I tried myself to look for it.

I disagree that it's useless though I have a technical masters and an MBA both have helped me secure work. Sure if you're 50 years old and have 25 years experience in your skill area then it probably won't do much but if you're 30 with 5 years experience it will help you be competitive with those people 10+ years in your area... if you plan to stay contracting its just going to get way more competitive so you have to do everything you can.

Also disagree that education is behind real world in this area. People who say that have no idea what they are talking about. Data science is literally that... it's taking scientific research methodology (statistics) and applying to the business world. Academia is way ahead of the private sector when it comes to math and statistics.