Reply to: Am I worrying too much?

[Paralytic]

I'm not sure if you're worrying too much, but I'd say you're writing too much

Have you spoken to your employer for the perm role about the option for some flexible working practices for the first year after your child is born?

[northernladuk]

Sounds like you've made your mind up to me.

[0index]

Interesting point re RoS - if that can be established with someone that the OP trusts - it may be the silver bullet for them. Pay whoever it is from your own company to come in and learn the business for a week - lose two grand rather than 25 grand. Pitch it to the client as you're developing your client base and want to make sure that yourco can keep delivering excellence even if you personally are not available. I'm working at a startup at the moment and we're open to using contractors properly if they have a niche service.

But wouldn't I have to sort of be there to train them up on what we've been working on? I thought a substitute was a complete substitution and I wasn't present.

This is why it gets a bit complicated, because there are maybe small chunks of work that can be done with minimal "training" - but in software its not like I can just get any software developer off the street and say "can you do these 5 things for a week please".

Software generally takes a week or two just to understand how it all works before you start chipping in with any real impact.

Having said that - I am more than happy to do this, I have a young cousin who I hired as a helper over his summer holiday two years ago - he helped me with some grunt tasks.

I am happy to snap him up again over the summer for slightly bigger tasks...

[LondonManc]

Must admit, although I get what LondonMac says, I think I am with Cojak on this one. Despite having very flexible working conditions 3 years at a company of this size just smacks of permie. The line between a project and business as usual/part and parcel is very tight and from the explanation and what the client manager said to him sounds like a step too far in to part and parcel to me.

Although time isn't directly a factor in IR35 it gets harder and harder to stay outside, particularly in an organisation that just sees you as part of the company, which they must do after 3 years.

The fact both poster and client manager is talking about the person delivering I'd be very surprised if they would allow RoS as well.

I'd also be err'ing on the side of caution here to start off with. Self determining outside isn't a golden bullet. It's what we do now so at risk of an investigation as we are now, so the risk hasn't gone away.

Remember as well... The small company exemption is likely the next thing to go when the dust settles.

All that, and a peach of a permie role landing in his lap just tips it for me. Just treat it like a poorly paid gig which we all get once in awhile. Do a year and come back to market with a refreshed skillset and start again.

Interesting point re RoS - if that can be established with someone that the OP trusts - it may be the silver bullet for them. Pay whoever it is from your own company to come in and learn the business for a week - lose two grand rather than 25 grand. Pitch it to the client as you're developing your client base and want to make sure that yourco can keep delivering excellence even if you personally are not available. I'm working at a startup at the moment and we're open to using contractors properly if they have a niche service.

[0index]

If you don't know the basics of running a service company I certainly can't explain it all in one post. It would also lead me to believe you've just been a bum on seat filling a permie role so I'm even more in favour of you leaving to avoid a retro investigation.

The more this thread goes on the less confident I feel of your position. Bar the contract (which was in your name originally which is what they really want anyway) I'm not seeing much good news.

It was written to be an agreement between business to business, but QDOS noted there was one point where they mentioned me by name.

I would like to think I am somewhat aware of how to run a company to some degree - make sure I hold insurance, have my own website / business email address, try and market a little bit, and take on work where possible. Not sure what "Preferred Company Email" means unless you literally just mean, my company email address.

Managed Service I can imagine meaning an agreement where my company looks after a certain part of your business - but yeah I won't lie I don't understand how this works in practice.

Where I get confused with this whole debate, is how do you fill the need for a flexible workforce?

I know in my particular gig, 3 years is a bit much (although if I was working on the project they want to move me onto now from the beginning, it would still be the exact same project with my specialist help required) - but I don't understand what's wrong with needing to bring people in who understand the problem and know the solution and can start working straight away - without supervision, hand-holding or nurturing, and then having the ability to chop them whenever its deemed necessary.

I work in software - I understand a lot of people are disguised employees in the sense that they literally work the exact same as the permie next to them, and I've been in places where contractors weren't allowed to tell people they were contractors, in case the permie staff got any ideas.

But for the other folks who do want to deliver on project work only, like a *lot* of people who contract (in the right way) I imagine - what % of these people would understand the ins and outs of running a "managed service" and actually do that? The reason that "contractors" are not termed the exact same as "freelancer" or simply "consultancy" is because (in my opinion) the way they work is as described above - brought in with 0 rights, can be dropped for any reason, and expected to hit the ground running...but work alongside the existing team in a predictable manner - a great way to quickly fill skill gaps and temporarily ramp up productivity accordingly.

Either way, I'm up for changing things up and I want to become more of a "consultancy" - but I'm still thinking if I pass a contract review and get IR35 insurance, will working for one more year really be a big deal, especially as it still gives me an opportunity to build up my network and try and bring in more projects.

[GhostofTarbera]

I do still have outgoings, just around 6-900 quid less than most people who pay a mortgage.

My dad is retired, and my wife will be on maternity, so I don't think I need to provide baby cover the entire day - also if I did find I needed to "concentrate" and couldn't be in the same house, I have a WeWork close to me that I am going to start renting hotdesk space for should I continue.

I like the idea of taking a whole year off, but with the wife on reduced pay I don't think the wisest decision is to slowly eat through my warchest when I have the option to keep earning money.

In a seriously worst case scenario, I could even just tell my client I'm only around to give three days a week.

Do you not agree?

My younger self would advise you to keep working all the days and nights to get the money in

My older self advises you are a long time deed, and only have one life, live it


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[northernladuk]

Is there any way you could further clarify on this? I'm not sure what a "managed service offering" is, and how difficult it is to 'switch' over.

I also have no idea what a Preferred Company email is, and I don't get how fixed cost works in practice.

Does it mean "I don't need you to pay me by the day, just pay me 60k by the end of a six month contract", but ask for tranches of that pay every 2 months or whatever? How does that work if I have scuppered my dates and now need to deliver late, or I am ill for a period of time and cannot deliver or whatever? I'm not sure how logistically this all works out.


Thanks all!

If you don't know the basics of running a service company I certainly can't explain it all in one post. It would also lead me to believe you've just been a bum on seat filling a permie role so I'm even more in favour of you leaving to avoid a retro investigation.

The more this thread goes on the less confident I feel of your position. Bar the contract (which was in your name originally which is what they really want anyway) I'm not seeing much good news.

[eazy]

Length of Contract

Davies v Braithwaite it was said
Contract lawyer (UK) Roger Sinclair Egos Ltd – IR35 - length

"When a person occupies a post resting on a contract, and if then that is employment as opposed to a mere engagement in the course of carrying on a profession, I do not think that is a very difficult term of distinction, though perhaps a little difficult to apply to all cases. But I would go further than that and say that it seems to me that where one finds a method of earning a livelihood which does not consist of the obtaining of a post and staying in it, but consists of a series of engagements and moving from one to the other and in the case of an actor's or actress's life it certainly involves going from one to the other and not going on playing one part for the rest of his or her life, but in obtaining one engagement, then another, and a whole series of them then each of those engagements cannot be considered employment, but is a mere engagement in the course of exercising a profession, and every profession and every trade does involve the making of successive engagements and successive contracts and, in one sense of the word, employments."

Thus the principle of a pattern of successive engagements (essentially, the same position as a contractor today) has been recognised as being wholly consistent with no more that 'incidents in the course of (a) professional career', and thus not intrinsically being any form of employment pointer.

That said, the Contractor who remains with one client for a succession of different contracts and projects may be running an unnecessary risk - although (s)he may be able to say that doing so represents no more than exercising sound management.

[0index]

You live with your dad with no bills

When baby is born your life will change forever, your newborn will totally understand your busts of intense concentration and sleep 23 hours a day


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I do still have outgoings, just around 6-900 quid less than most people who pay a mortgage.

My dad is retired, and my wife will be on maternity, so I don't think I need to provide baby cover the entire day - also if I did find I needed to "concentrate" and couldn't be in the same house, I have a WeWork close to me that I am going to start renting hotdesk space for should I continue.

I like the idea of taking a whole year off, but with the wife on reduced pay I don't think the wisest decision is to slowly eat through my warchest when I have the option to keep earning money.

In a seriously worst case scenario, I could even just tell my client I'm only around to give three days a week.

Do you not agree?

[GhostofTarbera]

But I could spend time with my newborn child and keep working my existing gig? As a software developer I have bursts of intense concentration and then a few fairly lengthy breaks - and I'm happy to work round the clock in that fashion.

This is the main reason I want to continue with my current gig, as much as I am salivating at the learning opportunity with the perm role + boost to the CV + temp laying low from the contractor market - I think staying at home and being around my child (and also bringing in more cash to look after it) is the decision I will regret least? And if the work dries up before the year is up then yeah I can just chill and take my time to figure out what to do next, but annoyingly have burned my bridges with the company offering the perm gig.

You live with your dad with no bills

When baby is born your life will change forever, your newborn will totally understand your busts of intense concentration and sleep 23 hours a day


Sent from my iPhone using Contractor UK Forum

[0index]

Stop right there

Take a year off and delight in your newborn child - time and memories and bonding you will never get back


Sent from my iPhone using Contractor UK Forum

But I could spend time with my newborn child and keep working my existing gig? As a software developer I have bursts of intense concentration and then a few fairly lengthy breaks - and I'm happy to work round the clock in that fashion.

This is the main reason I want to continue with my current gig, as much as I am salivating at the learning opportunity with the perm role + boost to the CV + temp laying low from the contractor market - I think staying at home and being around my child (and also bringing in more cash to look after it) is the decision I will regret least? And if the work dries up before the year is up then yeah I can just chill and take my time to figure out what to do next, but annoyingly have burned my bridges with the company offering the perm gig.

[GhostofTarbera]

I do have a strong warchest - and live with my dad .

Stop right there

Take a year off and delight in your newborn child - time and memories and bonding you will never get back


Sent from my iPhone using Contractor UK Forum

[0index]

If you are direct with a client that wants to keep you and is willing to structure the relationship to keep it outside, you can nail this down pretty comfortably.

@WordIsBond I got back my QDOS review - I answered a question incorrectly (goes to show how much they read into my comments which would have contradicted the answer I accidentally gave) and it appears this was the only reason they would mark me INSIDE - is the fact that I said I don't have control over how I deliver my work. As said before I do have effective total control other than obviously making sure I build something that fits into the clients constraints.

They also noted my physical name in the actual contract could be changed, and the work hours don't look great. But other than that I think if I get back to them and say "I answered this by mistake, also how do you feel about staying on for a fourth year" and they mark me OUTSIDE, are you saying as long as I can get my client to sign off saying they agree that is how our working relationship is, then I'm good to go?

At what point would you say I should move on however? My main concern now is, if people think contracting is dead in 12 months time and I am told "definitely leave your current contract by Year 4" then I'm potentially going to be stuck in a dodgy job market for the sake of one extra year.

Better still set up as a managed service offering. You own what you do and sell it to them as a service. They don't have to worry about the technicalities. Just get a service for money.

If not that play the game and get yourself a Preferred Company email and then sell to them on fixed cost with milestone payments.

Might not help defend the past but will certainly bat off any snooping in to what you do now.

Does sound like you've missed a trick all these years if client is open to these ideas.

Is there any way you could further clarify on this? I'm not sure what a "managed service offering" is, and how difficult it is to 'switch' over.

I also have no idea what a Preferred Company email is, and I don't get how fixed cost works in practice.

Does it mean "I don't need you to pay me by the day, just pay me 60k by the end of a six month contract", but ask for tranches of that pay every 2 months or whatever? How does that work if I have scuppered my dates and now need to deliver late, or I am ill for a period of time and cannot deliver or whatever? I'm not sure how logistically this all works out.


Thanks all!

[northernladuk]

If the client wants to keep you and is willing to do what's necessary to help you stay outside, this is easy.

Go through CEST as if you were the client, answering all the questions on Substitution and Supervision/Direction/Control the way you want to work with them to stay on the right side of the business-to-business line.

Then, make sure the client agrees with those things (sounds like they will agree on substitution). Then, you sit down with them and go through it with them, question by question. Print the results, and ask them to give you a signed statement that this is an accurate representation of your business relationship.

Sorted.

It doesn't make you an employee that they like your work and offer you a contract for their next project. Even if it happens multiple times. It's SDC and the lack of the right of substitution, and Mutuality of Obligation beyond an irreducible minimum, that makes you an employee / inside IR35.

If you are direct with a client that wants to keep you and is willing to structure the relationship to keep it outside, you can nail this down pretty comfortably.

Better still set up as a managed service offering. You own what you do and sell it to them as a service. They don't have to worry about the technicalities. Just get a service for money.

If not that play the game and get yourself a Preferred Company email and then sell to them on fixed cost with milestone payments.

Might not help defend the past but will certainly bat off any snooping in to what you do now.

Does sound like you've missed a trick all these years if client is open to these ideas.

[WordIsBond]

If the client wants to keep you and is willing to do what's necessary to help you stay outside, this is easy.

Go through CEST as if you were the client, answering all the questions on Substitution and Supervision/Direction/Control the way you want to work with them to stay on the right side of the business-to-business line.

Then, make sure the client agrees with those things (sounds like they will agree on substitution). Then, you sit down with them and go through it with them, question by question. Print the results, and ask them to give you a signed statement that this is an accurate representation of your business relationship.

Sorted.

It doesn't make you an employee that they like your work and offer you a contract for their next project. Even if it happens multiple times. It's SDC and the lack of the right of substitution, and Mutuality of Obligation beyond an irreducible minimum, that makes you an employee / inside IR35.

If you are direct with a client that wants to keep you and is willing to structure the relationship to keep it outside, you can nail this down pretty comfortably.