Reply to: Who to pursue for unpaid time when working via an umbrella?

[SueEllen]

If you feel that strongly that the client is a cowboy outfit then name and shame them. That's the best way to warn other contractors. Do it here, do it on their twitter and Facebook feeds and do it on other job sites. DO it anonymously though. If you are the only person with a problem with them then you'll be ignored if not then others will respond too and they will quickly realise they are getting a bad reputation and change their ways. Be careful to stick to pure facts though!

You don't even have go that far.

One of my ex-employers now has a recruitment issue both permie, contractor and with off-shore resources due to their previous conduct. I've had agents ring me up, tell me this and all I have to say is they do have issues. I've had discussions with off-shore people who were badly treated by them and just let them know they treat all their workforce like crap.

I also tell agents why I won't work for another client due to trying not to pay an invoice and advise them to be careful.

[handyandy]

If you feel that strongly that the client is a cowboy outfit then name and shame them. That's the best way to warn other contractors. Do it here, do it on their twitter and Facebook feeds and do it on other job sites. DO it anonymously though. If you are the only person with a problem with them then you'll be ignored if not then others will respond too and they will quickly realise they are getting a bad reputation and change their ways. Be careful to stick to pure facts though!

[fool]

I'm not sure why everyone is jumping on Mercury, I'd bin a client off if they refused to pay my invoice. Of course this wouldn't be my first port of call, obviously one tries honey before vinegar, but if a client still refuses to pay for work you legitimately did and you've exhausted other options, why would you care about your reputation with them?

@OP - I got burned by about £15k-20k because an umbrella agreed to close my dispute without my consent*, despite the client actually still my work 2 years later** and having form for losing their silly disputes in court. If I were you, I'd ask them to pay for days not disputed, otherwise you'll probably end up with nothing.

* The umbrella was winding up and informed me after taking the action.

** The dispute was that it wasn't fit for purpose.

[NotAllThere]

It wouldn't have made a difference, the company simply didn't authorise my timesheet.

You would have been able to chase directly. With the umbrella in the way you have to go after them for non-payment.

exactly.

You cannot chase the purported debt yourself as the debt is only to the brolly. The brolly are not withholding anything from you. The agency haven't paid the brolly's invoice. The brolly has little interest in chasing your claim, as they they gain nothing (or very little; most of the income would be passed over to you) and have to expend effort. You are the one who wants the money. If you had gone limited, you would be able to drive the process, rather than relying on a third party with no vested interest. The brolly are unlikely to be contractually obliged to chase the debt.

As a ltd, you could dun and take the case to the small claims court, with a reasonable chance of winning, signed time sheet notwithstanding. You see, a judge can decide that the withholding of the signature was unreasonable, since the work was actually done. Or possibly the agency doesn't take it seriously and end up with a CCJ and have to cough up. Or the agency can't be bothered and pays just to get you off their backs.

And why would you be worried about upsetting your brolly? They work for you!

[SueEllen]

It wouldn't have made a difference, the company simply didn't authorise my timesheet.

You would have been able to chase directly. With the umbrella in the way you have to go after them for non-payment.

[Contreras]

I trust my garage to do "safety critical" work on my car. They fix stuff, sign off an MOT and if they mess up then I or others may suffer injury. Trusting them implicitly with my well being does not mean I will pay the bill without question and you know what?- if it includes items that I wasn't expecting, I will question it.

The mechanic made an executive decision over something that, if we discussed beforehand, I may have agreed to anyway, or maybe not - it depends. My questioning might come across as mistrustful, let's just say based on experiences with other garages. The misunderstanding may even be my fault. Now they may not like it but if handled correctly then I will at the very least settle the bill. If he/she flounces 'cos I "dared to question their professionalism" then good luck getting any money out me without going legal.

The client was perfectly within right to question. You flounced. They binned you. On the face of it, over a matter of "principle" your rep will have suffered (that's the ironic bit).

But, yes, refusing to pay for work done and contracted is wrong. If you can evidence that then chase it starting with the umbrella. Hopefully the umbrella will fight your corner. Otherwise there may be mileage to pressure the agency and/or client, but perhaps use a lawyers letter (or debt agency) rather that direct as that hasn't worked out well so far. Good luck - but, you'll write the debt off, I bet.

[Mercury]

Everyone is capable of mistakes. Believing your word should be taken unconditionally isn't naivety it's arrogance.

The professional rebut would have been to:

• reaffirm the numbers as correct
• summarise the work delivered for that time
• show your reasoning for that work, citing emails/telephone calls etc.
• listen to the client's side

Misunderstandings happen, often without fault but it can also be deliberate (on either side!)

Give a little, take a little, and be robust when you feel a line has been crossed backed up with hard facts.

This is what builds rep as a fair player, so it's ironic that you feel your integrity has been questioned.

I didn't say unconditionally- the conditions had already been established, namely- being trusted to work on sensitive projects, having access sensitive data...being given a remote log-in... trust is therefore implicit. I'm far from arrogant, and did everything you have just listed. Hence feeling poorly treated. It's a ridiculous situation to have contract staff with sign-off authority on safety critical design aspects, who are then told they're not trusted to work off-site because hey, they might be watching daytime TV and submitting inflated timesheets. So if I say, hey, it's OK, don't pay me, I was out of sight- what does that say? I'm not being arrogant, it's just a point of principle. Misunderstandings happen, but flat-out refusing to pay me is surely wrong?

[Contreras]

I'm minded to just drop it, as it'll annoy both the umbrella, the client and the agency. But I'mm not a charity, I worked the hours I signed for, and having it questioned is not on.

Everyone is capable of mistakes. Believing your word should be taken unconditionally isn't naivety it's arrogance.

The professional rebut would have been to:

• reaffirm the numbers as correct
• summarise the work delivered for that time
• show your reasoning for that work, citing emails/telephone calls etc.
• listen to the client's side

Misunderstandings happen, often without fault but it can also be deliberate (on either side!)

Give a little, take a little, and be robust when you feel a line has been crossed backed up with hard facts.

This is what builds rep as a fair player, so it's ironic that you feel your integrity has been questioned.

[Mercury]

The problem here is that you have no direct means of chasing up payment and your are reliant on others chasing up for you...

The lesson here is don't use an umbrella and use a limited company...

It wouldn't have made a difference, the company simply didn't authorise my timesheet.

[eek]

There's a difference between throwing ones' toys out of the pram and expecting to be paid for work done. A huge difference.

I'm not short of work, so it's not about the money. It's a simple case of me doing work for which I am not being paid for.

The problem here is that you have no direct means of chasing up payment and your are reliant on others chasing up for you...

The lesson here is don't use an umbrella and use a limited company...

[Mercury]

How much are we talking about? a few hours? days? weeks?

It's less than 30 hours.

[Mercury]

It's not client discretion, it's the client disputing whether they need to pay or not. Given that you then throw your dummy out of the pram I really don't think you are going to win this one as you cannot do anything about it - only the umbrella company you use(d) can...

Personally I would give it up as a bad job and start finding another contract asap... Wasting time on this lost cause is not going to help your bank account..

There's a difference between throwing ones' toys out of the pram and expecting to be paid for work done. A huge difference.

I'm not short of work, so it's not about the money. It's a simple case of me doing work for which I am not being paid for.

[VillageContractor]

I'm minded to just drop it, as it'll annoy both the umbrella, the client and the agency. But I'mm not a charity, I worked the hours I signed for, and having it questioned is not on.

How much are we talking about? a few hours? days? weeks?

[Mercury]

Have you got a good working relationship with your immediate clientco manager?

If you mean the company I was working for, no- if you mean the agency, yes- have had a relationship with them for over ten years.

[eek]

Maybe I'm not being clear. They knew I was working from home. I am not making false claims, quite the opposite- I am having payment withheld on no basis other than the clients' discretion.

It's not client discretion, it's the client disputing whether they need to pay or not. Given that you then throw your dummy out of the pram I really don't think you are going to win this one as you cannot do anything about it - only the umbrella company you use(d) can...

Personally I would give it up as a bad job and start finding another contract asap... Wasting time on this lost cause is not going to help your bank account..