Reply to: Termination without warning

[SimonMac]

probably not the best place to find the definition. On here tulip is the word used to replace a 4 letter word for human excrement...

You mean poop?

[eek]

had to look that one up Urban Dictionary: tulip

I have lived a sheltered life.

probably not the best place to find the definition. On here tulip is the word used to replace a 4 letter word for human excrement...

[arby]

...Usually because they were tulip....

had to look that one up Urban Dictionary: tulip

I have lived a sheltered life.

[expat]

Still not convinced bringing obligation in day to day operations is right. We work T&M so surely work this day and not that day comes under that not obligation.

Sorry, respectfully disagree: we do not always work T&M. IMHO if you have a contract that specifies for example 62 days of work, that is T&M. If it specifies work until 31st October, that is not T&M.

[northernladuk]

Sorry I deleted my rambling as I realized it was what you were alluding too but you replied before I submitted it lol.

[SpontaneousOrder]

No obligation to offer you alternative work while in contract or more work once current contract is finished.

I guess this is what i'm alluding to. They aren't obliged to find you something to do if you finish early (and i'm to obliged to accept it if they did). Thats why i make sure i get written conformation that my services are no longer required when a project finishes early, even if I then accept a new schedule for something else at the same client.

All that being said, I read some guidance on HMRC site which referred to case history - and it all sounds completely subjective and whimsy.

[northernladuk]

I don't think so for the reasons other have said.

But... surely the fact that you only get paid for days worked, and they have no obligation to offer you work on any given day regardless of whether the contract is still ongoing, then there is a lack of mutuality with regards to obligation?

I.e. the lack of mutuality of obligation is in fact what is making the notice period (in that direction at least) redundant. The client is not obliged to actually offer you work during the contract period.

Although that does just sound like a zero hours employment contract.

Still not convinced bringing obligation in day to day operations is right. We work T&M so surely work this day and not that day comes under that not obligation.

[TykeMerc]

I've agreed early termination by a few weeks in 3 contracts in the last 5 years, all due to the projects getting wrapped up early, in each case the client offered to honour the full term.

2005 I had a project completely cancelled, that one led to a contract termination with no notice, but since the project was canned on my recommendation I can't say it came as a shock. There was no offer of a notice period being paid that time.

[SpontaneousOrder]

Isn't taking a holiday exercising your MOO clause to tell the client "I won't be available to work these days", since the specific concept of holidays and time off isn't part of a B2B contract?

I don't think so for the reasons other have said.

But... surely the fact that you only get paid for days worked, and they have no obligation to offer you work on any given day regardless of whether the contract is still ongoing, then there is a lack of mutuality with regards to obligation?

I.e. the lack of mutuality of obligation is in fact what is making the notice period (in that direction at least) redundant. The client is not obliged to actually offer you work during the contract period.

Although that does just sound like a zero hours employment contract.

[Boney M]

I have managed to get a few companies to pay up the notice period no problems

[LisaContractorUmbrella]

This seems right to me.

The point of this exercise is to show the differences between contractors and permies, right? It's not relevant how we respond or would respond if terminated, what is relevant is to undercut their stupid comparisons. "Employee does this job and contractor does the same job so they should pay the same tax" -- without regard to the fact that contractor has risks and costs employee doesn't, etc.

Maybe it could be broadened a little. Options:
1. I have had one or more contracts terminated without warning / notice.
2. I have never been terminated without warning / notice, but I have worked on contracts where the engager had the right to terminate without warning / notice.
3. I have always had enforceable termination warning / notice protection on all my contracts.

Probably not a lot of us are in #1, but all of us are in #1 or 2, and permies are in 3.

Exactly

[WordIsBond]

if you're set on a yes/no answer, question should maybe be

have you ever had a contract terminated without warning/notice

This seems right to me.

The point of this exercise is to show the differences between contractors and permies, right? It's not relevant how we respond or would respond if terminated, what is relevant is to undercut their stupid comparisons. "Employee does this job and contractor does the same job so they should pay the same tax" -- without regard to the fact that contractor has risks and costs employee doesn't, etc.

Maybe it could be broadened a little. Options:
1. I have had one or more contracts terminated without warning / notice.
2. I have never been terminated without warning / notice, but I have worked on contracts where the engager had the right to terminate without warning / notice.
3. I have always had enforceable termination warning / notice protection on all my contracts.

Probably not a lot of us are in #1, but all of us are in #1 or 2, and permies are in 3.

[pr1]

What sort of question would you suggest?

the problem with notice clauses is that although you might technically be able to enforce them, most contracts state that the client doesn't have to offer work on any particular day during the contract - so although you can enforce the notice period (as in, the contract still exists for another week/month) the client can still choose to not give you any work on those days so the notice clause doesn't really mean anything

if you're set on a yes/no answer, question should maybe be

have you ever had a contract terminated without warning/notice

[LisaContractorUmbrella]

And this is our representation??

Harsh but fair

[LisaContractorUmbrella]

too loose of a question, nluk will be all over it

What sort of question would you suggest?