Reply to: Unpaid invoice - do I have a possessory lien over equipment loaned to me by client ?

[Contreras]

Good on the OP for seeking professional advice and negotiating a settlement without allowing it to escalate. To be fair however the solicitor's opinion is just that, until proven in court.

Had the client have decided to play nasty and report the kit stolen then the OP would be answering to the police and if nothing else that would be an inconvenience.

There has to a line drawn at some point where the kit is no longer 'subject' of the services but is more simply a tool for testing firmware releases. This line is where lawyers make their money and they have a handy knack of advocating a single point of view.

[jamesbrown]

Also, if you can't ask about points of law on a contractors' forum entitled "Accounting & Legal" then where can you ask it?

A lawyer perhaps? Of course, you're free to ask what you want, but there's a degree of judgement required and the answers you received were entirely reasonable. In the unlikely event that someone had provided the detailed information you required (based on speculation about your position), you wouldn't have been in a position to judge whether that information was correct. Ultimately, on any detailed point of law, you need to consult a lawyer. That said, I'm glad you've got it sorted and thanks for reporting back because, if nothing else, it's illustrative that equipment can be retained under some circumstances.

[LondonManc]

Given the information at hand, you were supplied with correct answers. I think the complexity of your case is that it wasn't simply kit (e.g. angle grinder, laptop, etc.), despite you saying "My client lent me some equipment". Glad to hear that you've got a full answer from a qualified expert; hopefully that was prompted by the warnings on this thread about keeping the equipment.

[mangled]

Given the information provided, it was the correct advice. The circumstances were later seen to be slightly more complicated.

Oh here we go, Mr 20/20 Hindsight.

There's a builder that I know in a similar situation but on the other end. His subbie has done one and retained equipment in lieu of being paid (for an allegedly incomplete job). He's given the guy a week to return the equipment before he reports it stolen as he sees it as a bit of bum-seeing (has a mostly good working relationship with the guy, is happy to work with him again if situation can be redeemed). This is the sort of scenario the "internet warriors" were led to believe, rather than being advised of the complexities of the case.

The only "complexity of the case" that was not in my OP was the fact that the item concerned was a development platform which was the subject of the services. That is in fact crucial (in my limited understanding) but none of the replies mentioned it so relying on that now does seem to be 20/20 hindsight : PKB.

I can't really fathom why someone would turn to an internet forum for very specific legal advice, based on limited information, about an issue for which no one responding (including a lawyer) could offer an informed opinion. The range of responses are exactly what you might expect. On the contrary, it's you that seems to be the "internet warrior" here

Absolutely this. We gave our opinion as contractors and not as legal experts. Completely the wrong forum so got completely the wrong advice. You can't say we over charged him for it though.

Overcharged or not, I have to say that I was surprised by the apparent hostility of some of the initial replies, given that this forum is by and for other contractors ?

Also, if you can't ask about points of law on a contractors' forum entitled "Accounting & Legal" then where can you ask it ?

But, hey, it all turned out for the best in the end. Thanks to those who posted helpful advice and well wishes.

[mangled]

Interesting. You don't actually say that you waited until the invoice was paid before giving the equipment back. Is that what happened?

An agreement was reached, confirmed in writing and the equipment sent back. Actual payment was a few days later but I was happy all was going to go ahead OK which proved to be the case.

Also, what did your legal bill come to if any, and was it paid by an insurance policy?

No insurance and actually no bill either, surprisingly. I used a solicitor I had used before for the advice but it didn't get any further than a preliminary chat which he didn't bother to invoice for. I would obviously have put the work his way if the client had disputed but it all passed off fairly easily in the end.

[Bozwell]

Oh here we go, Mr 20/20 Hindsight.

There's a builder that I know in a similar situation but on the other end. His subbie has done one and retained equipment in lieu of being paid (for an allegedly incomplete job). He's given the guy a week to return the equipment before he reports it stolen as he sees it as a bit of bum-seeing (has a mostly good working relationship with the guy, is happy to work with him again if situation can be redeemed). This is the sort of scenario the "internet warriors" were led to believe, rather than being advised of the complexities of the case.

I wasn't having a go at the posters that replied, but it IS a good example why a forum isn't the place for complex legal questions and the OP recognised this and sought the professional advice he needed. No need to take it personally.

[northernladuk]

I can't really fathom why someone would turn to an internet forum for very specific legal advice, based on limited information, about an issue for which no one responding (including a lawyer) could offer an informed opinion. The range of responses are exactly what you might expect. On the contrary, it's you that seems to be the "internet warrior" here

Absolutely this. We gave our opinion as contractors and not as legal experts. Completely the wrong forum so got completely the wrong advice. You can't say we over charged him for it though.

[jamesbrown]

Interesting read.
A nice example of why people should seek professional advise and not take advice from a bunch of forum internet warriors. Pretty much everyone who replied to your post suggested you give the equipment back.

I can't really fathom why someone would turn to an internet forum for very specific legal advice, based on limited information, about an issue for which no one responding (including a lawyer) could offer an informed opinion. The range of responses are exactly what you might expect. On the contrary, it's you that seems to be the "internet warrior" here

[LondonManc]

Interesting read.
A nice example of why people should seek professional advise and not take advice from a bunch of forum internet warriors. Pretty much everyone who replied to your post suggested you give the equipment back.

Oh here we go, Mr 20/20 Hindsight.

There's a builder that I know in a similar situation but on the other end. His subbie has done one and retained equipment in lieu of being paid (for an allegedly incomplete job). He's given the guy a week to return the equipment before he reports it stolen as he sees it as a bit of bum-seeing (has a mostly good working relationship with the guy, is happy to work with him again if situation can be redeemed). This is the sort of scenario the "internet warriors" were led to believe, rather than being advised of the complexities of the case.

[NotAllThere]

Interesting read.
A nice example of why people should seek professional advise and not take advice from a bunch of forum internet warriors. Pretty much everyone who replied to your post suggested you give the equipment back.

Given the information provided, it was the correct advice. The circumstances were later seen to be slightly more complicated.

...My client lent me some equipment and is now seeking its return but I am holding off returning it pending payment of the disputed invoice. ...

... .if they'd lent me eg an oscilloscope I don't believe a lien would have existed.

[unixman]

Interesting. You don't actually say that you waited until the invoice was paid before giving the equipment back. Is that what happened?

Also, what did your legal bill come to if any, and was it paid by an insurance policy?

Well done.

[Bozwell]

Well I took legal advice on this and thought I'd post an update : my solicitor said that because the equipment provided to me was an embedded platform and was the subject of the work provided by MyCo (it ran the software I supplied to them under the contract) there did indeed exist a lien on it. I wrote to ClientCo & AgencyCo advising them of that and they eventually caved and paid my invoices.

So it shows to go... But be careful if you ever do this as it is not automatic that a lien exists - if they'd lent me eg an oscilloscope I don't believe a lien would have existed.

Also I found out that lien is pronounced "leen" not lee-enn as I'd thought ;-0

Interesting read.
A nice example of why people should seek professional advise and not take advice from a bunch of forum internet warriors. Pretty much everyone who replied to your post suggested you give the equipment back.

[jbond007]

Well I took legal advice on this and thought I'd post an update : my solicitor said that because the equipment provided to me was an embedded platform and was the subject of the work provided by MyCo (it ran the software I supplied to them under the contract) there did indeed exist a lien on it. I wrote to ClientCo & AgencyCo advising them of that and they eventually caved and paid my invoices.

So it shows to go... But be careful if you ever do this as it is not automatic that a lien exists - if they'd lent me eg an oscilloscope I don't believe a lien would have existed.

Also I found out that lien is pronounced "leen" not lee-enn as I'd thought ;-0

Fantastic result !

[mangled]

Well I took legal advice on this and thought I'd post an update : my solicitor said that because the equipment provided to me was an embedded platform and was the subject of the work provided by MyCo (it ran the software I supplied to them under the contract) there did indeed exist a lien on it. I wrote to ClientCo & AgencyCo advising them of that and they eventually caved and paid my invoices.

So it shows to go... But be careful if you ever do this as it is not automatic that a lien exists - if they'd lent me eg an oscilloscope I don't believe a lien would have existed.

Also I found out that lien is pronounced "leen" not lee-enn as I'd thought ;-0

[SimonMac]

My qualified lawyer would advise the OP to hand the equipment back straight away.

They'd then look at the contract.

My qualified solicitor would ask why I didn't give them the contract to review in the first place to avoid a dispute like this.

They would also tell me to hand back the equipment immediately.

My qualified solicitor would say on Item 1 are you properly opted out of the Conduct Regulations? And on item 2 they would say give it back as soon as it is requested.

Given the agent in the middle, it matters not whether the client pay the invoice if you are not properly opted out. Do you have liability insurance? Point the agent in that direction and see how far they get.

My disbarred partner at Dewie, Cheatem and Howe should probably not be listened to.