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Assessed as Inside from April or a Blanket Ban - it's time to leave

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    #31
    Originally posted by pscont View Post
    Hmmm ok. Could make sense. But isnt umbrella completely different entity to the agency?

    I.e. you sign contract with a brolly where no agency name is mentioned. So you work for the brolly.
    What is between brolly and agency is not your business.

    Or brolly-agency contract specifically mentions you?
    Agency's have a legal requirement to send a report to HMRC for all people they supply who they do not pay directly....

    That information includes start date of contract, your NI number, the days worked and amount paid and the company the money was sent to..
    merely at clientco for the entertainment

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      #32
      Originally posted by pscont View Post
      Hmmm ok. Could make sense. But isnt umbrella completely different entity to the agency?

      I.e. you sign contract with a brolly where no agency name is mentioned. So you work for the brolly.
      What is between brolly and agency is not your business.

      Or brolly-agency contract specifically mentions you?
      You need to read the newbie guides to the right -->
      'CUK forum personality of 2011 - Winner - Yes really!!!!

      Comment


        #33
        Originally posted by eek View Post
        Agency's have a legal requirement to send a report to HMRC for all people they supply who they do not pay directly....

        That information includes start date of contract, your NI number, the days worked and amount paid and the company the money was sent to..
        <modsnip>

        Mod reminder: Calling someone an idiot in the professional forums, especially if they're exhibiting idiotic behaviour (e.g. circumventing the swear filter and swearing in the professional forums after been banned already for the same thing), is permissible. Swearing and bypassing the swear filter are not.

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          #34
          Originally posted by pscont View Post
          <modsnip>)
          It is still all essentially guesswork.

          The obvious one to avoid for most contractors is the "Outside at Client A" -> "Inside at Client A".

          Whether HMRC come for you if you went :-


          "Outside Client A" -> "FTC Client A"
          "Outside Client A" -> "FTE Client A"
          "Outside Client A" -> "Inside Client B - PSC"
          "Outside Client A" -> "Umbrella Client B"
          "Outside Client A" -> "PAYE Agency Client B"

          Is really an educated guess. There is also the possibility of having your contract and working practices checked by a QDOS or Bauer & Cotterell (or others) to back up your Outside IR35 view and further down the path of safety (possibly), to take IR35 insurance based on that assessment. At least this shows "reasonable care / you've taken it seriously to HMRC" which might help them not look too far back. Also, it might help you if they know they're up against those insurers.

          Others on these forums have suggested taking a break and seeing what transpires in case of making any wrong move / letting the dust settle and making the right move. and then there's working overseas. Lots of might's and maybe's all round. Not easy decisions at all and very stressful for many out there.
          Last edited by nico; 13 February 2020, 16:13. Reason: typo

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            #35
            Originally posted by nico View Post
            It is still all essentially guesswork.

            The obvious one to avoid for most contractors is the "Outside at Client A" -> "Inside at Client A".

            Whether HMRC come for you if you went :-


            "Outside Client A" -> "FTC Client A"
            "Outside Client A" -> "FTE Client A"
            "Outside Client A" -> "Inside Client B - PSC"
            "Outside Client A" -> "Umbrella Client B"
            "Outside Client A" -> "PAYE Agency Client B"

            Is really an educated guess. There is also the possibility of having your contract and working practices checked by a QDOS or Bauer & Cotterell (or others) to back up your Outside IR35 view and further down the path of safety (possibly), to take IR35 insurance based on that assessment. At least this shows "reasonable care / you've taken it seriously to HMRC" which might help them not look too far back. Also, it might help you if they know they're up against those insurers.

            Others on these forums have suggested taking a break and seeing what transpires in case of making any wrong move / letting the dust settle and making the right move. and then there's working overseas. Lots of might's and maybe's all round. Not easy decisions at all and very stressful for many out there.
            Nope, the client isn't important here it's the agency who does the reporting.
            merely at clientco for the entertainment

            Comment


              #36
              Originally posted by eek View Post
              Nope, the client isn't important here it's the agency who does the reporting.
              So avoid the same agency for whatever your next move is, simps.

              Client A outside> Client A inside - (same agent) AVOID!!

              Client A outside> Client B inside - (same agent) AVOID!!

              Client A outside> Client C inside - (same agent) AVOID!!

              Client A outside> Client D inside - (different agent)

              Comment


                #37
                Originally posted by eek View Post
                Agency's have a legal requirement to send a report to HMRC for all people they supply who they do not pay directly....

                That information includes start date of contract, your NI number, the days worked and amount paid and the company the money was sent to..
                Interesting. So does that mean it is the same if the client bans PSCs?
                You could be deemed employee of the agency for periods before 6 April if you keep working with the same agency post 6 April?


                PS know someone who became client's employee from an outside contract via agency.

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                  #38
                  Originally posted by CompoundOverload View Post
                  So avoid the same agency for whatever your next move is, simps.

                  Client A outside> Client A inside - (same agent) AVOID!!

                  Client A outside> Client B inside - (same agent) AVOID!!

                  Client A outside> Client C inside - (same agent) AVOID!!

                  Client A outside> Client D inside - (different agent)
                  So HMRC get their information from agency reporting. So in terms of the risk of popping up on HMRC's hit list is there a difference between?:

                  Client A outside> Client A inside - (different agent)

                  Client A outside> Client D inside - (different agent)

                  Comment


                    #39
                    Originally posted by Blencathra View Post
                    So HMRC get their information from agency reporting. So in terms of the risk of popping up on HMRC's hit list is there a difference between?:

                    Client A outside> Client A inside - (different agent)

                    Client A outside> Client D inside - (different agent)
                    Nope, this entire point is that you don't want to appear on the agency reports so it's better if you don't wish to be on that report to shift agent than shift end client...

                    Which is what S3 group did when the public sector changes were made - all contracts inside IR35 were moved to a different agency within the group.
                    Last edited by eek; 14 February 2020, 11:58.
                    merely at clientco for the entertainment

                    Comment


                      #40
                      Originally posted by Blencathra View Post
                      So HMRC get their information from agency reporting. So in terms of the risk of popping up on HMRC's hit list is there a difference between?:

                      Client A outside> Client A inside - (different agent)

                      Client A outside> Client D inside - (different agent)
                      If going outside to inside, irrespective of the client (existing or new) you should not use the same agency (who report to HMRC) if you want to avoid risk of retro checks.

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