Results of the public sector consultation is up

[teapot418]

No-one has mentioned the possibility that the New World/new rules of April 7th may make those existing policies void...

Is there any indication that will happen? I could imagine insurers closing doors on new policies, but can't see how they could rescind on ones currently in force.

[eek]

If that was the impression I gave, then I apologise. It's very much an issue.

However, if you are working in the public sector, outside IR35, whether or not you intend to move to private sector, move to a different role in public sector, or stay in the same role, you would IMHO be mad not to have insurance in case, as many have suggested, HMRC do come after roles that have now been declared inside.

I also pointed out that the criteria haven't changed - the administration has. So if you are outside IR35 and your working practices don't change, then you could, if you were prepared for the stress, and had insurance (and I'd include TLC35 or equivalent in that) stick it out and if you get challenged retrospectively, fight it with a good chance of winning. I sincerely hope some people do to expose this for the farce it is, but anyone who has got the opportunity to move out should. Insurance does not make this a non-issue - it gives you a better chance of successfully fighting the issue if you have the will to do so.

To blunt we don't know that...

While in theory the law hasn't changed:-

1. the initial point of decision,
2. the means by which payment is made and
3. the criteria HMRC are using for determining the initial decision

have all changed. That means the situation is definitely different from April...

The only other thing we do know is that until April determining which IR35 cases to pursue has been blooming painful for HMRC so they haven't launched that many of them. The issue is that from April there will be a lot of (probably easy to win) easily accessible potential cases and the idea that no-one is going to ask "You know all those IR35 payments from April, lets look at last years figures" is incredibly unlikely... Especially as I suspect someone has already asked that question...

[eek]

Is there any indication that will happen? I could imagine insurers closing doors on new policies, but can't see how they could rescind on ones currently in force.

Go ask anyone in an HMRC Enquiries thread what happened to their scheme provider when the going got tough...

[teapot418]

The problem with that statement is that contractors are not employed Department -> Umbrella -> Worker its Department -> Agency -> Umbrella -> worker.....

Now I have 2 issues with this rule:-

1) when it first appeared it was the Agency who was determining status so they could work out where the rules applied and where they didn't - that's no longer the case (the department does it) so I suspect because there are serious penalties for not determining status within 31 days departments will decide the status of all roles simply because that's easier for them to do.

2) a get out clause for umbrella's means that the not quite umbrella tax dodgy schemes will have a new market to target... and I doubt most agencies know how to tell the difference between a honest one with no kickback and a dishonest one with a large kickback...

Agree with both of those.

[difficulttimes]

Go ask anyone in an HMRC Enquiries thread what happened to their scheme provider when the going got tough...

Let's not throw the IPSEs, QDOS etc. in with scheme providers who have done a runner. That is taking it a bit too far and they are still accepting new clients on the same terms so nothing has changed from their end.
Remember there has been zero communication to public sector bodies from HMRC on this and we are in mid-Jan and their so called tool is not available until late Feb/early March. I think bodies like TfL and NHS need to be careful on sending out communication to their contractors until they fully know the situation.

Also, as I expect many new 'lurkers' to use CUK forum for information we do have to be careful to not be speaking about some sort of armageddon for PS contractors. Otherwise, you will see an influx of highly stressed people for no good reason.

If it is HMRC's view to look at people when they change from Ltd. to Umbrella due to the new rules then I hope this is part of the communication as I'm sure the end client would want nothing more than to put their contractor through such a stressful situation. But that would be wishful thinking.

[eek]

Let's not throw the IPSEs, QDOS etc. in with scheme providers who have done a runner. That is taking it a bit too far and they are still accepting new clients on the same terms so nothing has changed from their end.
Remember there has been zero communication to public sector bodies from HMRC on this and we are in mid-Jan and their so called tool is not available until late Feb/early March. I think bodies like TfL and NHS need to be careful on sending out communication to their contractors until they fully know the situation.

Also, as I expect many new 'lurkers' to use CUK forum for information we do have to be careful to not be speaking about some sort of armageddon for PS contractors. Otherwise, you will see an influx of highly stressed people for no good reason.

If it is HMRC's view to look at people when they change from Ltd. to Umbrella due to the new rules then I hope this is part of the communication as I'm sure the end client would want nothing more than to put their contractor through such a stressful situation. But that would be wishful thinking.

Do you know what the reason for my change in tone from this is likely to be a problem to this WILL be a problem?

And I haven't said that IPSE and QDOS will do a runner. What I suspect will happen is that they will be drowned in work enough to spend the historic spare funds...

[cojak]

Do you know what the reason for my change in tone from this is likely to be a problem to this WILL be a problem?

And I haven't said that IPSE and QDOS will do a runner. What I suspect will happen is that they will be drowned in work enough to spend the historic spare funds...

Oh and FYI, come April I'll be asking Admin to set up another sub-forum: "Public Sector IR35".

I suspect it's going to be rather busy...

[newtothegame]

Thanks for all your comments...

I have just been reading my policy not only am I insured against fighting ir35 I am also covered for back tax and penalties....

So... if I was to fail the test come April (that I have no control over ) providing I didn't except the result and asked my insurance to take over.... in theory it's no worse than getting an ir35 investigation now.... I would obviously just be at an impass within my current contract and would have to leave. As I don't agree with being inside....

[newtothegame]

eg refuse to move to umbrella

[jamesbrown]

Oh and FYI, come April I'll be asking Admin to set up another sub-forum: "Public Sector IR35".

I suspect it's going to be rather busy...

Yes, good idea. Maybe even sooner if, as eek suggests, many PS folks appear to be more clued-up than expected and start to find us...