Staying in the same public sector contract after April 2017

[SussexSeagull]

Got a UKHO job advert through this morning. Probably see the same few roles a few times a week at the moment:

"The Maximum Daily Pay Rate: £281.43 PAYE Rate ONLY"

... for an SC cleared .NET development role.

I got a phone call about the Test equivalent - £212.50 also inside PAYE.

Was basically told it was mine if I wanted it. Politely declined.

[LondonManc]

Some may just do it for s&*^ and giggles - I wasn't planning on staying anyway so let's see how far I can push it.

I bet you as soon as you tell the end client that you are raising this at the tribunal - your status will quickly change too... They don't want that sort of hassle.

Would this go to an Employment tribunal?

An extractor?

[LondonManc]

I got a phone call about the Test equivalent - £212.50 also inside PAYE.

Was basically told it was mine if I wanted it. Politely declined.

So, the equivalent of, approximately, a £46k pa salary but no perm benefits.

[BoredBloke]

Some may just do it for s&*^ and giggles - I wasn't planning on staying anyway so let's see how far I can push it.

I bet you as soon as you tell the end client that you are raising this at the tribunal - your status will quickly change too... They don't want that sort of hassle.

Would this go to an Employment tribunal?

More likely they would serve you notice as that would be less hassle

[LondonManc]

More likely they would serve you notice as that would be less hassle

Quite possible. However, who are you hassling, the department you're working for or HMRC? Let's not also forget, that the department head may be peed off with HMRC for hamstringing his recruitment and delivery so may be more than happy to help.

[SussexSeagull]

So, the equivalent of, approximately, a £46k pa salary but no perm benefits.

Would have had to stay away during the week as well.

[difficulttimes]

Who has actually read the original IR35 legislation from 1999?

So I was thinking today, who on this forum has actually read it? I say that because from what I know it was originally set up to protect people being pushed into self-employed situation. It was there to stop employers from not taking on staff as employees which is why recent cases like Deliveroo and Uber were successful for the disgruntled self-employed contractor took on their end client. So it is to do with the end client (employer) and the contractor/employee. Nowhere in this was it designed for Ltd. Co (I'm pretty sure it doesn't even mention Ltd. Co (PSCs) or brollys etc) - this was done by HMRC which is why it is called a grey area of legislation because the actual legislation does what it says on the can what HMRC want it for is not the case.
Even the term 'disguised employee' is a made up HMRC term and not in the legislation and I'm fairly sure that a tribunal judge will throw that out quick smart. 'So you are saying he is a disguised employee?' 'mmm..' NEXT!

This is why HMRC are very very unlikely to ever win a case as the legislation doesn't include a 3rd party which is why they have tried to block the BBC presenters from bringing in their employers to testify.
Anyway, this originally partly fueled the EBT boom in the early 00s and if people then looked at the legislation more closely they would have realised it was there to protect you not to go after you.

Fast forward 17 years, and it is like history repeating itself - same legislation and the same sense of fear but this time it will fall on the PS body as HMRC won't be there to protect them in a tribunal. They will be up against it as a contractor fights for the same rights as their employed colleague or they fight their status - this legislation was written to favour the contractor (possible wannabe employee). HMRC will say it is a success because of the millions more they bring in through tax revenue but the PS Bodies will be there to pick up the higher cost of running a service with the fear of litigation over their shoulders.

Sad state of affairs for everyone.

The only saving grace for everyone is that report that is due out sometime in 2017 - it would be nice to have an intelligent conversation on this matter and not one driven by tax collection.

I could be way off but that is my Thursday rant.

[Semtex]

What are the options

So this thread has a lot of:
"leave before youre doomed!"
"If you don't leave before April 2017 youre doomed and certain to get an IR35 investigation"
"I left months ago only tulip contractors are still there"

But not enough of:
"If you are still in the PS this is what you should do..>"

Can we look to collate a straightforward, simple understanding of how a contractor can should look to operate if still in PS ?

Things like?

Get a new Contract.
Use a brolly.
issues with same role and new inside contract

would be good to see some positive steps a contractor can take instead of " I got out months ago and you are all doomed"

be nice to end up with some sort of steps to tackle the issue (apart from just leave)

[eek]

So I was thinking today, who on this forum has actually read it? I say that because from what I know it was originally set up to protect people being pushed into self-employed situation. It was there to stop employers from not taking on staff as employees which is why recent cases like Deliveroo and Uber were successful for the disgruntled self-employed contractor took on their end client. So it is to do with the end client (employer) and the contractor/employee. Nowhere in this was it designed for Ltd. Co - this was done by HMRC which is why it is called a grey area of legislation because the actual legislation does what it says on the can what HMRC want it for is not the case.
This is why HMRC are very very unlikely to ever win a case as the legislation doesn't include a 3rd party which is why they have tried to block the BBC presenters from bringing in their employers to testify.
Anyway, this originally partly fueled the EBT boom in the early 00s and if people then looked at the legislation more closely they would have realised it was there to protect you not to go after you.

Fast forward 17 years, and it is like history repeating itself - same legislation and the same sense of fear which is why this will fall on HMRC eventually through tribunal hearings etc. but by the will take down hundreds if not thousands of contractors with it and they will say it is a success.

Sad state of affairs for everyone.

The only saving grace for everyone is that report that is due out sometime in 2017 - it would be nice to have an intelligent conversation on this matter and not one driven by tax collection.

I could be way off but that is my Thursday rant.

The review has an online discussion board at https://beis.dialogue-app.com/matthew-taylor-review

[eek]

So this thread has a lot of:
"leave before youre doomed!"
"If you don't leave before April 2017 youre doomed and certain to get an IR35 investigation"
"I left months ago only tulip contractors are still there"

But not enough of:
"If you are still in the PS this is what you should do..>"

Can we look to collate a straightforward, simple understanding of how a contractor can should look to operate if still in PS ?

Things like?

Get a new Contract.
Use a brolly.
issues with same role and new inside contract

would be good to see some positive steps a contractor can take instead of " I got out months ago and you are all doomed"

be nice to end up with some sort of steps to tackle the issue (apart from just leave)

The thing is that it depends - we don't know enough to sensibly provide advice bar the fact that I personally (knowing some who are leaving with no work to go to) believe you need to put a distance between your current contract and where ever you are come April... But that depends on how long you've been there. Been there a month, the potential tax bill were HMRC to be awkward is nowt, been there 5 years the tax bill will be hideous...

And personally I wouldn't want to use an umbrella as that makes you an employee - however if you put a lot in a pension an umbrella is a good idea because they can direct it towards the pension before deducting employers NI...