Staying in the same public sector contract after April 2017

[Andy Hallett]

Thanks for that..
Couple of further points..

A ) if I was placed in an inside IR35 deemed contract then I would ask for a copy of the assessment because I reckon the end clients will be thinking that to make life easier let's make them inside IR35 but we will continue to treat contractors the same. ie. I may want regular supervision now or you are supposed to be providing this so called direction you have said. Where is that? You need to take more control over this project as well. The lists go on and on... the end client can't have the cake and eat it too. Then after I get all that, I will take you to the tribunal as I want the same rights as the permie sitting next to me

B) I still think like the working practices questionnaire that was bouncing around central government departments over the last few years. People will quickly work out how to answer it so it sits outside IR35 - there must be a way of answering it so it comes out with that otherwise it's a bit like a North Korean election.

A) Yes, one assumes that any reasonable organisation would evidence their decision. The easiest way is to provide the relevant ESS

B) You can take as many tests as you like, anonymously, so in theory yes you can reverse engineer it until you get an outside determination. As long as it reflects the reality and is not fraudulent, you are home and clear.

[jamesbrown]

Thanks for that..
Couple of further points..

A ) if I was placed in an inside IR35 deemed contract then I would ask for a copy of the assessment because I reckon the end clients will be thinking that to make life easier let's make them inside IR35 but we will continue to treat contractors the same. ie. I may want regular supervision now or you are supposed to be providing this so called direction you have said. Where is that? You need to take more control over this project as well. The lists go on and on... the end client can't have the cake and eat it too. Then after I get all that, I will take you to the tribunal as I want the same rights as the permie sitting next to me

B) I still think like the working practices questionnaire that was bouncing around central government departments over the last few years. People will quickly work out how to answer it so it sits outside IR35 - there must be a way of answering it so it comes out with that otherwise it's a bit like a North Korean election.

I think you're missing the point that the tool is simply designed to assist the PS client in making a determination. A determination which they're naturally inclined towards making inside. Quite a few PS clients probably won't even touch the tool and will simply deem all contractors to be inside or require the use of an umbrella, contractually (as in TfL). For those that do use the tool, it's going to be heavily biased towards an inside determination. The tool itself has no legal standing, although HMRC have agreed to stand by a decision, if it's "used properly" (). If you ever get to a tribunal, it won't be the tool that determines your status.

[difficulttimes]

A) Yes, one assumes that any reasonable organisation would evidence their decision. The easiest way is to provide the relevant ESS

B) You can take as many tests as you like, anonymously, so in theory yes you can reverse engineer it until you get an outside determination. As long as it reflects the reality and is not fraudulent, you are home and clear.

So it isn't 1 test per contract? The end client could in principle take the test a number of times?
I do wonder who is 'taking' this test within the PS body - HR admin officer who probably doesn't care and wants to make their life easy.

[cojak]

So it isn't 1 test per contract? The end client could in principle take the test a number of times?
I do wonder who is 'taking' this test within the PS body - HR admin officer who probably doesn't care and wants to make their life easy.

It's a lot more than a junior staff member looking for an easy life, it will be the HR Head of Department looking for advice from the legal team when they learn that they'll be liable for tax if they get it wrong.

[difficulttimes]

It's a lot more than a junior staff member looking for an easy life, it will be the HR Head of Department looking for advice from the legal team when they learn that they'll be liable for tax if they get it wrong.

Normally heads of HR hate contractors and consultants, inside or outside IR35 so there is no chance that they will spend an hour + of their time and do this - their first comment will be employ someone permanent!

It should and you would hope be the hiring manager who on the most part would be quite of-fay with contractors. Some of them may have been one in a previous life so should 'get it'. But who knows...

[bobspud]

You're not suggesting that there are fundamental flaws in the implementation logic are you? Heaven forbid.

Can any one else spell here comes the next P P I compensation...

[eek]

Normally heads of HR hate contractors and consultants, inside or outside IR35 so there is no chance that they will spend an hour + of their time and do this - their first comment will be employ someone permanent!

It should and you would hope be the hiring manager who on the most part would be quite of-fay with contractors. Some of them may have been one in a previous life so should 'get it'. But who knows...

It can't be the hiring manager, he won't be in a position to sign off what is both a monetary and political decision.... As such I expect blanket decisions like TFL with only very few exceptions....

[Andy Hallett]

It can't be the hiring manager, he won't be in a position to sign off what is both a monetary and political decision.... As such I expect blanket decisions like TFL with only very few exceptions....

Don't be surprised if the TFL pronouncement is slowly brushed under the carpet or fully retracted.

[Andy Hallett]

Normally heads of HR hate contractors and consultants, inside or outside IR35 so there is no chance that they will spend an hour + of their time and do this - their first comment will be employ someone permanent!

It should and you would hope be the hiring manager who on the most part would be quite of-fay with contractors. Some of them may have been one in a previous life so should 'get it'. But who knows...

Presume you are not au fait with using French phrases :-)

[cojak]

It can't be the hiring manager, he won't be in a position to sign off what is both a monetary and political decision.... As such I expect blanket decisions like TFL with only very few exceptions....

This is exactly what I mean about the HR Head of Department making this decision...