Edge EBT thread

[ScottW]

Guys, guys, guys!!

lets not panic about this case, the most important thing is meeting the deadline to submit an appeal. I almost miss the appeal deadline as I was away abroad on holiday for few weeks and got lucky to put it in 2 days before deadline day. Phew!!


If you managed to put the appeal in before the deadline then everything else is pretty simple, well from my stand point anyway.


So now lets see,

one or two people mentioned in this thread how HMRC will view your case if you start making voluntary monthly/yearly instalment payments to the loan provider(edge consulting).
While it seems a good idea voluntary repayments will NOT carry as much weight as being forced by the loan company to make repayments and with consequences if you fail to make your loan repayment obligations.

A tax lawyer said in this thread that the EBT-Loan employee benefit arrangement is solid and fool proof on paper but it's shamble implementation by the EBT-Loan agencies/companies like Edge is what is causing the problem.
I actually agree with this Judgement and I'll tell you why in a minute.

In a nutshell, this case is about two sides squabbling about weather a payment is a loan or an income.
We the contractors are claiming it's a loan, HMRC are saying "Oh no it's not, it's a taxable income"


So let's create a virtual court room here to see what happens:

So we arrive in front of a tribunal judge to hear our case and the Judge ask HMRC to explain the reason behind their thinking that the payment is a taxable income. You don't have to be a psychic to guess reply of HMRC.
HMRC will say "well, we have an individual here who claimed a payment he has received is a loan but CANNOT supply documents to support the loan agreement and repayment terms which is the hallmarks of all other loans like mortgages and credit cards etc.. furthermore in the years since the payment has been made to the individual, not a penny has been paid back to the loan provider nor has the loan provider initiated a process for the loan repayment."

So the Judge will say "hmm... very interesting, How about you the contractor. Do you have any documentary evidence to back your claim that the payment is a loan?"
At this point the contractor will probably scratching his chin and looking to the sky.(The contractor has no leg to stand on, he is a sitting duck in front of the tribunal judge)
Some of us with a bit of imagination might reply to the Judge and say "When I took out the loan the loan provider(Edge Consulting) made it clear that, they reserve the right to re-call the loan and request repayment at any time in the future or at any time of their chosen but this hasn't yet happened"

The Tribunal Judge might want to call in a representative of Edge consulting to appear in court as a witness in this case for interrogation.(We all know this cannot happen as Edge consulting seems to have dissapeared from the surface of the earth or re-branded itself as new company, this is probably not good for our case)
Let me tell you this, even if the contractors side paid a lawyer 100 Billion pounds to represent us, If we cannot provide documentary evidence in court to prove to the Judge that it's a loan then the contractor side will lose the case despite hiring an expensive lawyer.

So you may ask, what type of documentary evidence do the contractor side need to prove to the Judge it's a loan. The hint is in the reply of HMRC to the Judge in the virtual court enactment discussed above.

Documentary evidence we need to take to tribunal court.
1. A loan agreement and terms documentary evidence from the Loan provider(Edge)
2. A letter from the loan provider(Edge) adressed to each contractor requesting loan repayment commence immediately in monthly/yearly installments or single full payment and spelling out the consequences of failure to comply.

This is why I believe that Edge consulting made mess of the EBT-loan scheme by not clearly stating the terms of the loan agreement in line with other types of loans. Now they've gotten cold feet and dissapeared.
If we can get the 2 items listed above then I'm certain we have a great chance of winning this case without need for a lawyer and there is even a possibility of HMRC backing off the case and not bothering to take it to court.

When I was sold this EBT-Loan scheme by Edge a few years back, they claimed it was legal and approved by HMRC. Now with HMRC hot on the heels of contractors using this scheme, Edge consulting fearing backlash of writ and to avoid being sued by contractors have decided to pack it in and shut up shop. or have they? they might have genuinely just changed their phone numbers or re-branded for other reasons not related to this case.

But it's not too late for Edge consulting to correct their mistake. They just need to supply us with the 2 items listed above as documentary evidence we can take to tribunal with us then all will be Ok. Item 2 being the most important.



The conclusion:

While Edge appeared to be no more we can contact Michelle Booth to help us get hold of an appointed Edge representative in care of their estate to provide us the 2 items listed above and the letter requesting repayment of the loan in monthly or yearly instatements with minimum of just £1 a year repayment to help us who can't afford to repay the loan in single full repayment. The Letter should also state how much loan is due to be repaid and the consequence of failure to repay.

While I don't know the fully details of the rangers case but somehow he was able to convince the Judge that actually the payment was a loan and won. I'm sure the evidence he supplied to back his case will have loan repayment terms as and or request for repayment documentary evidence at the heart of his defence.

Please feel free to reply back with your thoughts. But be careful in your reply as without doubt HMRC read this post and any admission of guilt on your part will no doubt be used as evidence against you in the tribunal
I for one wholly believe the payment I received from Edge to be a loan and expected to pay it back fully to the loan provider even if I can only afford £1 a year repayment that will take many many years to be fully re-paid.

That's that sorted then.

Thanks Rumpole.

[malvolio]

That's that sorted then.

Thanks Rumpole.

Fascinating and comprehensive. One question though... why would Edge or whoever they are be interested in helping? They've got their money so job done, move on...


Also I am no doubt missing something here, but it was the EBT that provided the loan, wasn't it?

[PeterF]

Fascinating and comprehensive. One question though... why would Edge or whoever they are be interested in helping? They've got their money so job done, move on...

Exactly. Reading back through my literature and communication with Edge I'm now convinced they knew this day was coming and had their escape planned for many years. If you think they give two hoots about any of us or helping I'm afraid you're sorely mistaken. Did Michelle or anyone else give any of us advance warning of their pending disappearance? As I mentioned before, that ought to tell you all it needs to.

In my opinion, best to simply forget about Edge and deal with this as best we can, be that individually or as a group.

[bstar1]

Exactly. Reading back through my literature and communication with Edge I'm now convinced they knew this day was coming and had their escape planned for many years. If you think they give two hoots about any of us or helping I'm afraid you're sorely mistaken. Did Michelle or anyone else give any of us advance warning of their pending disappearance? As I mentioned before, that ought to tell you all it needs to.

In my opinion, best to simply forget about Edge and dealing with this as best we can, be that individually or as a group.

Agreed !

[cerner]

Fascinating and comprehensive. One question though... why would Edge or whoever they are be interested in helping? They've got their money so job done, move on...


Also I am no doubt missing something here, but it was the EBT that provided the loan, wasn't it?

If they realize all they have to do to help is simply providing those 2 items of documents discussed i.e loan agreement and repayment terms document and letter requesting instalment payments.

The help we are asking for doesn't take much resource from them considering the gains they have made from us. I wouldn't just write them off easily as they might not have thought they could help by providing us the 2 items I listed above.

I for one will do my best to track them down to obtain those two items of documents discussed above as documentary evidence in my defence in court in readiness for when my court case is due.

You can pay billions to lawyers as much as you like but I can't see anyone winning this case if you're not able to provide those documentary evidence that payment you receive is a loan.

It's my guess that Edge probably decided to shut up shop in panic that they might be sued by contractors but if they realize all they had to do to correct the situation is simply supply us with those 2 items of documents they might reason and corporate.

Everything hinges on being able to supply those 2 items of documentary evidence to the tribunal.

[malvolio]

If they realize all they have to do to help is simply providing those 2 items of documents discussed i.e loan agreement and repayment terms document and letter requesting instalment payments.

The help we are asking for doesn't take much resource from them considering the gains they have made from us. I wouldn't just write them off easily as they might not have thought they could help by providing us the 2 items I listed above.

I for one will do my best to track them down to obtain those two items of documents discussed above as documentary evidence in my defence in court in readiness for when my court case is due.

You can pay billions to lawyers as much as you like but I can't see anyone winning this case if you're not able to provide those documentary evidence that payment you receive is a loan.

It's my guess that Edge probably decided to shut up shop in panic that they might be sued by contractors but if they realize all they had to do to correct the situation is simply supply us with those 2 items of documents they might reason and corporate.

Everything hinges on being able to supply those 2 items of documentary evidence to the tribunal.

And if that then leads them into discussions about false loan structures and mis-selling...? Ask by all means, and I hope it works, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

[FHP143]

Not helpful!

Guys, guys, guys!!

lets not panic about this case, the most important thing is meeting the deadline to submit an appeal. I almost miss the appeal deadline as I was away abroad on holiday for few weeks and got lucky to put it in 2 days before deadline day. Phew!!


If you managed to put the appeal in before the deadline then everything else is pretty simple, well from my stand point anyway.


So now lets see,

one or two people mentioned in this thread how HMRC will view your case if you start making voluntary monthly/yearly instalment payments to the loan provider(edge consulting).
While it seems a good idea voluntary repayments will NOT carry as much weight as being forced by the loan company to make repayments and with consequences if you fail to make your loan repayment obligations.

A tax lawyer said in this thread that the EBT-Loan employee benefit arrangement is solid and fool proof on paper but it's shamble implementation by the EBT-Loan agencies/companies like Edge is what is causing the problem.
I actually agree with this Judgement and I'll tell you why in a minute.

In a nutshell, this case is about two sides squabbling about weather a payment is a loan or an income.
We the contractors are claiming it's a loan, HMRC are saying "Oh no it's not, it's a taxable income"


So let's create a virtual court room here to see what happens:

So we arrive in front of a tribunal judge to hear our case and the Judge ask HMRC to explain the reason behind their thinking that the payment is a taxable income. You don't have to be a psychic to guess reply of HMRC.
HMRC will say "well, we have an individual here who claimed a payment he has received is a loan but CANNOT supply documents to support the loan agreement and repayment terms which is the hallmarks of all other loans like mortgages and credit cards etc.. furthermore in the years since the payment has been made to the individual, not a penny has been paid back to the loan provider nor has the loan provider initiated a process for the loan repayment."

So the Judge will say "hmm... very interesting, How about you the contractor. Do you have any documentary evidence to back your claim that the payment is a loan?"
At this point the contractor will probably scratching his chin and looking to the sky.(The contractor has no leg to stand on, he is a sitting duck in front of the tribunal judge)
Some of us with a bit of imagination might reply to the Judge and say "When I took out the loan the loan provider(Edge Consulting) made it clear that, they reserve the right to re-call the loan and request repayment at any time in the future or at any time of their chosen but this hasn't yet happened"

The Tribunal Judge might want to call in a representative of Edge consulting to appear in court as a witness in this case for interrogation.(We all know this cannot happen as Edge consulting seems to have dissapeared from the surface of the earth or re-branded itself as new company, this is probably not good for our case)
Let me tell you this, even if the contractors side paid a lawyer 100 Billion pounds to represent us, If we cannot provide documentary evidence in court to prove to the Judge that it's a loan then the contractor side will lose the case despite hiring an expensive lawyer.

So you may ask, what type of documentary evidence do the contractor side need to prove to the Judge it's a loan. The hint is in the reply of HMRC to the Judge in the virtual court enactment discussed above.

Documentary evidence we need to take to tribunal court.
1. A loan agreement and terms documentary evidence from the Loan provider(Edge)
2. A letter from the loan provider(Edge) adressed to each contractor requesting loan repayment commence immediately in monthly/yearly installments or single full payment and spelling out the consequences of failure to comply.

This is why I believe that Edge consulting made mess of the EBT-loan scheme by not clearly stating the terms of the loan agreement in line with other types of loans. Now they've gotten cold feet and dissapeared.
If we can get the 2 items listed above then I'm certain we have a great chance of winning this case without need for a lawyer and there is even a possibility of HMRC backing off the case and not bothering to take it to court.

When I was sold this EBT-Loan scheme by Edge a few years back, they claimed it was legal and approved by HMRC. Now with HMRC hot on the heels of contractors using this scheme, Edge consulting fearing backlash of writ and to avoid being sued by contractors have decided to pack it in and shut up shop. or have they? they might have genuinely just changed their phone numbers or re-branded for other reasons not related to this case.

But it's not too late for Edge consulting to correct their mistake. They just need to supply us with the 2 items listed above as documentary evidence we can take to tribunal with us then all will be Ok. Item 2 being the most important.



The conclusion:

While Edge appeared to be no more we can contact Michelle Booth to help us get hold of an appointed Edge representative in care of their estate to provide us the 2 items listed above and the letter requesting repayment of the loan in monthly or yearly instatements with minimum of just £1 a year repayment to help us who can't afford to repay the loan in single full repayment. The Letter should also state how much loan is due to be repaid and the consequence of failure to repay.

While I don't know the fully details of the rangers case but somehow he was able to convince the Judge that actually the payment was a loan and won. I'm sure the evidence he supplied to back his case will have loan repayment terms as and or request for repayment documentary evidence at the heart of his defence.

Please feel free to reply back with your thoughts. But be careful in your reply as without doubt HMRC read this post and any admission of guilt on your part will no doubt be used as evidence against you in the tribunal
I for one wholly believe the payment I received from Edge to be a loan and expected to pay it back fully to the loan provider even if I can only afford £1 a year repayment that will take many many years to be fully re-paid.

I'm not trying to be critical here but posts like this REALLY are not helpful! I appreciate that we are in a stressful position right now but "speculating" on what path a tribunal may or may not take and what conclusions a judge may or may not draw is pure speculation and nothing else! There are people on this forum who are extremely stressed and anxious about these demands and this type of "scare mongering" from individuals who are frankly amateurs who fancy themselves to be "tax specialists" is truly not helpful! Unless you are a qualified and experienced tax professional, i do not believe you have any place commenting on what will and will not happen in this matter. Simply put.......you have no idea do you?

Besides, what you have stated above is factually incorrect! I for one do have copies of my loan agreement which clearly states the terms of the loan. Malvolio is correct in saying the loans were granted form the trust and the trustees. Furthermore, your explanation surrounding what Edge should have done re the repayment of the loans shows a clear lack of understanding of EBT's and how trusts work in general. Trust law and rules are complicated and it is not as "simple" as you have suggested.

If people want to be helpful and contribute information that benefits the group, please consider whether what you are posting is factually correct before posting it. This kind of speculation does not help!

[PeterF]

I'm not trying to be critical here but posts like this REALLY are not helpful! I appreciate that we are in a stressful position right now but "speculating" on what path a tribunal may or may not take and what conclusions a judge may or may not draw is pure speculation and nothing else! There are people on this forum who are extremely stressed and anxious about these demands and this type of "scare mongering" from individuals who are frankly amateurs who fancy themselves to be "tax specialists" is truly not helpful! Unless you are a qualified and experienced tax professional, i do not believe you have any place commenting on what will and will not happen in this matter. Simply put.......you have no idea do you?

Besides, what you have stated above is factually incorrect! I for one do have copies of my loan agreement which clearly states the terms of the loan. Malvolio is correct in saying the loans were granted form the trust and the trustees. Furthermore, your explanation surrounding what Edge should have done re the repayment of the loans shows a clear lack of understanding of EBT's and how trusts work in general. Trust law and rules are complicated and it is not as "simple" as you have suggested.

If people want to be helpful and contribute information that benefits the group, please consider whether what you are posting is factually correct before posting it. This kind of speculation does not help!

Insert gif of that black and white footage of slow hand clap here: ------>

[EdgeSter]

Acknowledgement of Appeal and Postponement of Collect

Has anyone heard back from the HMRC yet after the latest appeals?

Hi

Yep I got my letter today. I sent a duplicate of the original response letter edited for 2009/2010 as no one had mentioned the short form version when I got my demand!!!!

[Saleos]

Group Representation by experienced Tax Professional

I have today circulated details of my proposal to those on this forum who had emailed me directly with their personal email address.

If you have not received that and wish to be sent a copy of my proposal, including costs and the services included, please DM me with the email address to which I should it.

Many thanks

Saleos