Loan Charge review - in limbo

[webberg]

Jesse Norman MP announced that the loan charge review, due to report by mid November (and note, report - not be published) would now not happen and instead will report only when the new government is installed.

If that is mid December, I cannot imagine that the review will be top of the in box.

This is therefore running close to the deadline for tax return submission (31st January).

If you are in settlement, go and seek advice from whomever you are using.

[ChimpMaster]

Jesse Norman MP announced that the loan charge review, due to report by mid November (and note, report - not be published) would now not happen and instead will report only when the new government is installed.

If that is mid December, I cannot imagine that the review will be top of the in box.

This is therefore running close to the deadline for tax return submission (31st January).

If you are in settlement, go and seek advice from whomever you are using.

I note that the information sheet at HMRC has been updated:-

https://assets.publishing.service.go...ance_Final.pdf

Horrifying though that HMRC say that you will need to report loans on tax returns and then apply for an amendment afterwards, if the report changes what you owe.

And even worse is that they have changed the guidance for settlements so that it now reads:
HMRC recognise you may want to wait for the government’s response to the review before finalising your settlement. You will need to report the loan charge on your tax return if your settlement is not finalised by 31 January 2020. Reporting your loan charge will not prevent you finalising your settlement. Once your settlement is finalised you can amend your tax return if necessary.

So they have changed their rules yet again.

It's going to be far easier to die than it is to get through this mess.

[coder]

It just gets worse doesn't it! I struggle to see how anyone can settle by Jan even f they wanted too since HMRC aren't processing many

[regron]

I note that the information sheet at HMRC has been updated:-

https://assets.publishing.service.go...ance_Final.pdf

Horrifying though that HMRC say that you will need to report loans on tax returns and then apply for an amendment afterwards, if the report changes what you owe.

And even worse is that they have changed the guidance for settlements so that it now reads:
HMRC recognise you may want to wait for the government’s response to the review before finalising your settlement. You will need to report the loan charge on your tax return if your settlement is not finalised by 31 January 2020. Reporting your loan charge will not prevent you finalising your settlement. Once your settlement is finalised you can amend your tax return if necessary.

So they have changed their rules yet again.

It's going to be far easier to die than it is to get through this mess.

According to the webpage, that particular document hasn't been updated since it was first published, but I don't have the original to compare. The below suggests that the email from FST to Sir A is the only addition.

Published 11 September 2019
Last updated 5 November 2019 - hide all updates
5 November 2019
Updated with 'Letter from the FST to Sir Amyas Morse'.
8 October 2019
Updated text under 'contacting the review and providing supporting evidence'
17 September 2019
The page has been updated to add the contact details for the review, explain that people can send it evidence, clarify who has published the supporting documents on the page, and shorten the description of the review. Also updated document title for 'Disguised remuneration: Loan charge review'
11 September 2019
First published.

[Iter]

According to the webpage, that particular document hasn't been updated since it was first published, but I don't have the original to compare. The below suggests that the email from FST to Sir A is the only addition.

Published 11 September 2019
Last updated 5 November 2019 - hide all updates
5 November 2019
Updated with 'Letter from the FST to Sir Amyas Morse'.
8 October 2019
Updated text under 'contacting the review and providing supporting evidence'
17 September 2019
The page has been updated to add the contact details for the review, explain that people can send it evidence, clarify who has published the supporting documents on the page, and shorten the description of the review. Also updated document title for 'Disguised remuneration: Loan charge review'
11 September 2019
First published.

Given the timescales and changes how on earth can they expect anyone to pay by 31/1. They change the goal posts daily. I imagine they will allow another TTP for the LC?

[ChimpMaster]

According to the webpage, that particular document hasn't been updated since it was first published, but I don't have the original to compare. The below suggests that the email from FST to Sir A is the only addition.

Published 11 September 2019
Last updated 5 November 2019 - hide all updates
5 November 2019
Updated with 'Letter from the FST to Sir Amyas Morse'.
8 October 2019
Updated text under 'contacting the review and providing supporting evidence'
17 September 2019
The page has been updated to add the contact details for the review, explain that people can send it evidence, clarify who has published the supporting documents on the page, and shorten the description of the review. Also updated document title for 'Disguised remuneration: Loan charge review'
11 September 2019
First published.

It has been updated, yesterday.

HMRC are trying to remove our option to settle. They want everyone to pay the LC, because that way they have to put zero effort in and will simply sit back and collect the Self Assessment payouts.

[webberg]

It has been updated, yesterday.

HMRC are trying to remove our option to settle. They want everyone to pay the LC, because that way they have to put zero effort in and will simply sit back and collect the Self Assessment payouts.

Above, there is a question about how does HMRC expect people to pay given the delay to the loan charge review?

I'm afraid that the hard answer is that the loan charge has been close on three years in the making and HMRC will certainly regard that as sufficient notice.

As to the question about whether the loan charge is due and payable, you must make a judgement.

Do you think that the loan charge - as written - applies to you or not?

If not, how will you defend it?

[ChimpMaster]

Above, there is a question about how does HMRC expect people to pay given the delay to the loan charge review?

I'm afraid that the hard answer is that the loan charge has been close on three years in the making and HMRC will certainly regard that as sufficient notice.

As to the question about whether the loan charge is due and payable, you must make a judgement.

Do you think that the loan charge - as written - applies to you or not?

If not, how will you defend it?

Of course the LC applies to everyone with "open loans" - in HMRC's distorted opinion. There is no way for us to defend against this position that HMRC have fabricated.

We were told that the LC wouldn't apply if we were in discussions to settle. There was no deadline for settlement and we were allowed some reprieve in that we could await Sir AM's report.

But here is the problem: now there is a definite deadline of 31st Jan, and how can we expect to have Settlement agreed by that date, when Sir AM's report will only be released in late December. Furthermore, it is HMRC who are not responding to Settlement enquiries. They are causing the delay, and will no doubt continue their delay tactics until we are all forced on to the LC.

I registered for CLSO2 in April 2018. 20 months ago. HMRC have stopped responding to my queries since June 2019. How can I settle, if HMRC won't communicate with me?

[webberg]

Of course the LC applies to everyone with "open loans" - in HMRC's distorted opinion.

I would not agree with that view.

HMRC's view of the law as intended and written is very obviously that it captures all payments of money, however described or documented, that passed to you from a known tax avoidance source, regardless of the circumstances of that payment.

Ask yourself, how likely is it that one set of legal paragraphs, no matter how long or well constructed, can encompass the 150+ schemes that we know of (HMRC claim 250+)?

Logic dictates therefore that the law cannot capture every circumstance.

Further, the legislation uses the definition found in the DR rules. Did you use a scheme prior to that?

Further, how does the legislation tie in with Rangers and now Hoey?

Agreed that HMRC will expect you to disclose in the tax return. They will threaten punishment if you do not agree with that view. Their view is not however the law and nor is it the final word. Only a Tribunal and perhaps ultimately a Court decide that.

Going against HMRC is not something to be undertaken lightly of course, but accepting their unsupported opinion is equally not reasonable.

[TheDandy]

I would not agree with that view.

HMRC's view of the law as intended and written is very obviously that it captures all payments of money, however described or documented, that passed to you from a known tax avoidance source, regardless of the circumstances of that payment.

Ask yourself, how likely is it that one set of legal paragraphs, no matter how long or well constructed, can encompass the 150+ schemes that we know of (HMRC claim 250+)?

Logic dictates therefore that the law cannot capture every circumstance.

Further, the legislation uses the definition found in the DR rules. Did you use a scheme prior to that?

Further, how does the legislation tie in with Rangers and now Hoey?

Agreed that HMRC will expect you to disclose in the tax return. They will threaten punishment if you do not agree with that view. Their view is not however the law and nor is it the final word. Only a Tribunal and perhaps ultimately a Court decide that.

Going against HMRC is not something to be undertaken lightly of course, but accepting their unsupported opinion is equally not reasonable.

This!