CLSO2 or Join Big Group?

[Hydro]

Hello All

I've been reading through forums and I'm at the point now of either choosing to settle through CLSO2 or join a Big Group with WTT. I didn't know much about CLS02 to start with and reading forums and speaking with WTT I now know it's a take it or leave it offer. I was disappointed really as I thought there may be some negotiation with HRMC to get a fair deal but I guess not. Looking at the numbers I could pay the settlement and it wouldn't kill me but it will hurt. I'm reluctant though as I know this is a nudge tactic and I'm doing the work for HRMC by going down this route. If they could apply this charge to us they would have sent out demands for payment years ago and wouldn't be making us go through all these hoops. On the flip side it will clear me and settle it all once and for all, as long as they don't apply extra charges (IHT etc).

I'm thinking about the Big group as I genuinely believe that the outfits that were involved in this are responsible and shouldn't be able to just walk away. However this is could go on for 3-4 years and the LC19 is quite scary and would be double what my settlement could be along with added interest and penalties. The Big Group has given itself a 65% chance of success based on the Rangers outcome. It doesn't exactly give a warm feeling but I always prefer a realistic figure for what the chance of success could be. However you look at what happened to Wayne Rooney who made the point of he advised on good faith by an expert and the let down but still lost. You think what chance do we have?

Just curious what other people are thinking about for themselves going forward? I know that the LC19 is the big stick to force us in a direction and when it comes round to actually applying it may get struck down when challenged possibly but you can't tell how this is going to go.

[me206et]

Hello All

I've been reading through forums and I'm at the point now of either choosing to settle through CLSO2 or join a Big Group with WTT. I didn't know much about CLS02 to start with and reading forums and speaking with WTT I now know it's a take it or leave it offer. I was disappointed really as I thought there may be some negotiation with HRMC to get a fair deal but I guess not. Looking at the numbers I could pay the settlement and it wouldn't kill me but it will hurt. I'm reluctant though as I know this is a nudge tactic and I'm doing the work for HRMC by going down this route. If they could apply this charge to us they would have sent out demands for payment years ago and wouldn't be making us go through all these hoops. On the flip side it will clear me and settle it all once and for all, as long as they don't apply extra charges (IHT etc).

I'm thinking about the Big group as I genuinely believe that the outfits that were involved in this are responsible and shouldn't be able to just walk away. However this is could go on for 3-4 years and the LC19 is quite scary and would be double what my settlement could be along with added interest and penalties. The Big Group has given itself a 65% chance of success based on the Rangers outcome. It doesn't exactly give a warm feeling but I always prefer a realistic figure for what the chance of success could be. However you look at what happened to Wayne Rooney who made the point of he advised on good faith by an expert and the let down but still lost. You think what chance do we have?

Just curious what other people are thinking about for themselves going forward? I know that the LC19 is the big stick to force us in a direction and when it comes round to actually applying it may get struck down when challenged possibly but you can't tell how this is going to go.

Ditto. I am in the same boat.
But having spoken to BG I am afraid all I got was a very poor sales pitch.
I phoned to find out some basic information, how to join and what they could help with.
I ended up believing that they are just another group after you cash.

I can probably just afford CLSO2. LC19 will sink me without trace.
HMRC has pushed this, got the law changed and invested a lot of time in this so much already, do you seriously think they are going to walk away from it, I am not convinced.

Would be interested in other views though.

[Delendog]

Ditto. I am in the same boat.
But having spoken to BG I am afraid all I got was a very poor sales pitch.
I phoned to find out some basic information, how to join and what they could help with.
I ended up believing that they are just another group after you cash.

I can probably just afford CLSO2. LC19 will sink me without trace.
HMRC has pushed this, got the law changed and invested a lot of time in this so much already, do you seriously think they are going to walk away from it, I am not convinced.

Would be interested in other views though.

I am in BG and disagree - I'd suggest you call them yourself and make your own opinion rather than taking other views.

[Loan Ranger]

If CLSO2 works out substantially less than LC19 then it's definitely worth considering.

Have a read of the last page of this PDF to make sure you understand what CLSO2 includes (ie. whether you'll be charged NICs, interest)
LC19 - Pension Contributions v3

[ChimpMaster]

If CLSO2 works out substantially less than LC19 then it's definitely worth considering.

Have a read of the last page of this PDF to make sure you understand what CLSO2 includes (ie. whether you'll be charged NICs, interest)
LC19 - Pension Contributions v3

I'd be inclined to go one further and say that CLSO2 is better even if the numbers against LC are very similar. CLSO2 draws a line on the issue (or at least you can aim to get that in writing from HMRC) while LC leaves things open for further review by HMRC in the future.

The pension point is important but difficult to achieve in practice and might not save as much as one thinks. It is a 30% tax saving for me, which is nice, but necessitates an 80% increase in cash to be able to fund the pension + pay the tax.

[DontSettle]

Remember that CLSO2 could require you to voluntarily pay up for tax you do not need to pay.You will never ever get the voluntary payment back under any circumstances.

[Kais]

I'd be inclined to go one further and say that CLSO2 is better even if the numbers against LC are very similar. CLSO2 draws a line on the issue (or at least you can aim to get that in writing from HMRC) while LC leaves things open for further review by HMRC in the future.

The pension point is important but difficult to achieve in practice and might not save as much as one thinks. It is a 30% tax saving for me, which is nice, but necessitates an 80% increase in cash to be able to fund the pension + pay the tax.

I'm inclined to agree and am most likely going to settle to draw a line under the whole thing.

Leaving loans outstanding exposes us to the risk of a future initiative. This doesn't need to be another loan charge but any as yet unknown creation. This is also more likely if HMRC/Parliament feel that too many have found creative way to circumvent the full intended tax.

Doing something legal at the time (but undeniably dubious) caused this issue in the first place, not to learn from this and attempt another creative solution is...

My thinking above is based on an uncomfortable but not painful amount to settle, others will fall at different places along a spectrum.

[Loan Ranger]

I'd be inclined to go one further and say that CLSO2 is better even if the numbers against LC are very similar. CLSO2 draws a line on the issue (or at least you can aim to get that in writing from HMRC) while LC leaves things open for further review by HMRC in the future.

The pension point is important but difficult to achieve in practice and might not save as much as one thinks. It is a 30% tax saving for me, which is nice, but necessitates an 80% increase in cash to be able to fund the pension + pay the tax.

Agreed. CLSO2 is the only risk-free option.

[Loan Ranger]

Remember that CLSO2 could require you to voluntarily pay up for tax you do not need to pay.You will never ever get the voluntary payment back under any circumstances.

Unfortunately, HMRC have engineered it so it's a choice between rock and a hard place. If you don't settle, you'll get hit by LC19.

[jbryce]

To a large extent, HMRC has just beaten us into submission. They don't quite have the law on their side, but they have contractors re-mortgaging, selling homes and fleeing the country. By the time anything gets to court such a large proportion of contractors will have stumped up that even if HMRC lose they can just shrug their shoulders and move on. A loss probably won't even see HMG legislating another LCv2.0 to try and catch the dregs. What would be the point?

So, if you have balls, patience and some faith in the judiciary then BG is definitely an option. Speak to Grahan or Rhys at BG - they're not salesmen and do actually give a ****. They are running a business, they do believe in their strategy and it has legal legs. It's probably easier money doing CLSO2 so they aren't pursuing the easier path.

For CLSO2, speak to phil.

But CLSO2 is final. No subsequent court ruling will allow you to get your cash back. It's gone.

For me, I'm hedging it. I've done enough due diligence to know that the BG strategy is tenable, but I will register for CLSO2 because the mental anguish this has caused me will probably see me fold.