Sympathy for the Devil

[jes107]

You might want to ask an independent tax adviser about para 4(1) here: Finance (No. 2) Act 2017

It basically says that if you don't pay tax on the money you "ask them to divert" then the repayment of the loan won't count as a repayment. So the April 2019 loan charge still applies to that old loan. But that would be less than half your problem because if the promoter arranged a new loan for you to repay the original loan then there may well be a new disguised remuneration charge on the new loan. So the tax rates get quite high, quite quickly (even ignoring GAAR).

Yeah, may even just direct my question to HMRC. My reasoning behind it is that is it any different from salary sacrifice? So i wouldnt call it tax avoidance, just tax planning.

[Iliketax]

My reasoning behind it is that is it any different from salary sacrifice? So i wouldnt call it tax avoidance, just tax planning.

Doesn't matter what you call it. The legislation is designed to stop you getting money back without paying tax. But if you put your cards face up on the table and HMRC say fine, fill your boots.

FYI HMRC have already commented here: https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-man...anual/eim47050

[ChimpMaster]

The maximum your could get tax relief on would be 3x £40,000 plus £10,000. That assumes you already have a registered pension scheme, haven't made any pension contributions in 2018/19 or in the three years before, and that your annual allowance is not tapered in the earlier years.

<snip>If your employer is still around -- not pertinent to me</snip>

<snip>If you have a big pension pot already -- not pertinent to me</snip

A registered pension scheme - could that be one that my permie employer paid into 15 years ago but since then I haven't paid into? (it has around £40k invested in funds)

So on £130k I guess the relief would be 45% if one falls into the highest tax rate?

I think the numbers are getting too big for me anyway but it's interesting to see how much one might save by making a £130k pension contribution in 2019.

[phileds]

Too late?

Phil

Appreciate your advice here. I was in the IoM scheme, received APNs last year, and paid them - I read the APNs as begin unavoidable, and it was a case of pay up now or face fines/interest/penalties - and so I paid them. I was unaware they could be opposed (or that there were any grounds to oppose them), and was also unaware until last week that the Limitation Act might apply to the NIC element of the APNs. Until the APNs were paid, I had always opposed payment of the tax and NI.

Is it too late to ask for a refund of the NIC payments, given they were out-of-time? I think unfortunately I know the answer but would appreciate an expert's advice.

Thanks.

[phil@pmtc]

Phil

Appreciate your advice here. I was in the IoM scheme, received APNs last year, and paid them - I read the APNs as begin unavoidable, and it was a case of pay up now or face fines/interest/penalties - and so I paid them. I was unaware they could be opposed (or that there were any grounds to oppose them), and was also unaware until last week that the Limitation Act might apply to the NIC element of the APNs. Until the APNs were paid, I had always opposed payment of the tax and NI.

Is it too late to ask for a refund of the NIC payments, given they were out-of-time? I think unfortunately I know the answer but would appreciate an expert's advice.

Thanks.

Don’t wish to get up hopes but actually this may be ok dependent on details. I’m out at min recovering from 5 a side. Pm me your number and can have a chat in morning (all advice on this matter free of charge as only a call)

[ConfusedEasily]

Graham, it's utterly exhausting discussing anything with you. You speak in riddles and constantly change your story. It's clear to me you are just here to sell Big Group. Anything other than that you dismiss; fair enough you believe in your resolution strategy - but I am far from convinced. I thought WTT could still arrange settlement for me, but I'll be going elsewhere.

In fairness, BG has been pretty consistent. It's always been about settlement either via their strategy or CLSO2. Graham doesn't need to sell his strategy as, I believe, it is now closed.

I'm in the unfortunate position of seeing several members of my direct reports caught up in this, one will lose her home and job (HMRC insolvency post-APNs). Two are off sick and a final one has arranged CLSO2 (through WTT). We have a few more we suspect may be in trouble and we are considering supporting them with expertise internally.

Personally, I find the level of ingratitude towards people who are trying to give advice quite staggering. We are all in a situation born out of a lack of due-diligence of finding ourselves in an uncomfortable position. Graham, ILikeTax etc. are telling you things you find uncomfortable so I would suggest that you engage an accountant and a Lawyer and ask their opinion. 'You pays your money - you takes your choice' - and if you don't like what they say, you can pay another accountant and another lawyer until you get the answer you like.

[Iliketax]

A registered pension scheme - could that be one that my permie employer paid into 15 years ago but since then I haven't paid into? (it has around £40k invested in funds)

Yes

So on £130k I guess the relief would be 45% if one falls into the highest tax rate?

Yes

[Delendog]

Liquidation

A question for the experts on here if I may.

If your previous employer has filed for Members Voluntary Liquidation but before that has completed HMRC have made a claim on the Company - what status is that Company in regarding the Loan Charge - do HMRC consider it still active and liable or not?

Thanks

[Iliketax]

A question for the experts on here if I may.

If your previous employer has filed for Members Voluntary Liquidation but before that has completed HMRC have made a claim on the Company - what status is that Company in regarding the Loan Charge - do HMRC consider it still active and liable or not?

Thanks

HMRC would go after the company for PAYE, employee's NIC and employer's NIC in the first instance. Then they would go after the individual. This is what they said in December.

I don't do insolvency stuff, but if the liquidator couldn't pay HMRC then the MVL would become a CVL. In that case, the directors might get into a bit of trouble with the statutory declaration that they made (that the company will be able to pay all its debts within a year) you would want to get very clear legal advice (not tax advice and not stuff written on a forum) before signing the statutory declaration and listing the assets/liabilities. Why take legal advice? Because "a bit of trouble" could mean a prison sentence or fine.

[Delendog]

HMRC would go after the company for PAYE, employee's NIC and employer's NIC in the first instance. Then they would go after the individual. This is what they said in December.

I don't do insolvency stuff, but if the liquidator couldn't pay HMRC then the MVL would become a CVL. In that case, the directors might get into a bit of trouble with the statutory declaration that they made (that the company will be able to pay all its debts within a year) you would want to get very clear legal advice (not tax advice and not stuff written on a forum) before signing the statutory declaration and listing the assets/liabilities. Why take legal advice? Because "a bit of trouble" could mean a prison sentence or fine.

Thanks for that I can see in the Liquidators statement that £26K was allowed for HMRC in the solvency declaration but HMRC have asked for £33M yes million - it is being disputed......