New Finance Bill 2017-18

[eek]

If you don't do judicial revives then you’re not the right guy to take advice from on the chances of getting one.
You quote s24 Finance not been given permission but there must be plenty of other cases that were given permission.
If 5000 + contractors got together why would we need to team up with a hedge fund?
We will never have public opinion on our side even without hedge fund involvement and why do we need it for a judicial review

I'm not a person who does judicial reviews but I know that if you want to waste time raising money and organizing one it will be both a waste of time and money. Tax law is special in that its basically set in stone when written...

[Iliketax]

Cheers. So come January 2020 when you have to pay up, are the scenarios?

1. Employed scheme: PAYE on loans, no NIC
2. Self-employed scheme: PAYE on loans + NICs

Assume in 2020 no interest will be added for open years?

Employed (with dissolved employer): income tax, no NIC, by 31 January 2020
Employed (with employer still around): employer operates PAYE, employee's NIC due, employer will want reimbursement promptly after April 2019 - depending on PAYE code, may have extra income tax on 31 January 2020
Self-employed: income tax, class 4 NIC, by 31 January 2020 - but be very careful with payments on account!

Difference between income tax and PAYE is that PAYE is the method by which an employer withholds income tax on behalf of the employee.

No interest on April 2019 loan charge. But if you have an open year then HMRC may still pursue interest on that (but no double tax).

[washed up contractor]

Well - I doubt HMG would be paying you overtime on a Saturday if you were

Actually they would if it suits their cause. And yes, even on a Sunday!

[washed up contractor]

I'm not a person who does judicial reviews but I know that if you want to waste time raising money and organizing one it will be both a waste of time and money. Tax law is special in that its basically set in stone when written...

This is not correct at all. Most of the JR applications over APNs for example have literally been on the grounds that these are 'unfair' on the recipient. And it may well be unfair to demand payment of disputed taxes and argue over it later but it is no surprise these applications have failed. JRs can and are won on tax matters when they are based on substantive, factual discrepancies in the law and application of that law and not 'unfairness.'

Although not referred to in your post, it is also wrong to use the 'we dont have public support' argument. Public support doesnt hold sway in matters of tax to the Tax Chamber ie FTT and UTT, nor the Court of Appeal or Supreme Court. These matters are not held before a jury of our so called peers but, Judges, some schooled in tax matters.

The elephant in the room however, is getting 500+ contractors coralled together, organised and willing to pay the money for litigation while they are individually picked off, some would say targetted, by HMRC's bully boy tactics.

It can be done and I know of at least one group who are successfully managing this.

[eek]

This is not correct at all. Most of the JR applications over APNs for example have literally been on the grounds that these are 'unfair' on the recipient. And it may well be unfair to demand payment of disputed taxes and argue over it later but it is no surprise these applications have failed. JRs can and are won on tax matters when they are based on substantive, factual discrepancies in the law and application of that law and not 'unfairness.'

Although not referred to in your post, it is also wrong to use the 'we dont have public support' argument. Public support doesnt hold sway in matters of tax to the Tax Chamber ie FTT and UTT, nor the Court of Appeal or Supreme Court. These matters are not held before a jury of our so called peers but, Judges, some schooled in tax matters.

The elephant in the room however, is getting 500+ contractors coralled together, organised and willing to pay the money for litigation while they are individually picked off, some would say targetted, by HMRC's bully boy tactics.

It can be done and I know of at least one group who are successfully managing this.

An invalid Accelerated Payment Notice is not the same as an explicit item within an Finance Bill - if you think it is then you need to understand why one can be fought (as its incorrectly applied application of the law) and one is a complete waste of time (you are fighting policy as agreed by parliament)...

As for getting a group together - the 2019 charge has been known about for 18 months yet only now are you looking at doing something...

[washed up contractor]

An invalid Accelerated Payment Notice is not the same as an explicit item within an Finance Bill - if you think it is then you need to understand why one can be fought and one is a complete waste of time...

As for getting a group together - the 2019 charge has been known about for 18 months yet only now months before that tax year begins are you looking at doing something...

Sorry but you dont know as much as you like to think you do.

[eek]

Sorry but you dont know as much as you like to think you do.

i know you can ask for a judicial review on anything... Whether its worth the cost (and false hope) invoived is an entirely different matter..

[DeadDOTAS]

I'm sure BP will be around later with some more detailed advice but for the moment:-

Speak to the Samaritans
Get a doctors appointment and get suitable advice.

Thank you. Been there, done all that:

Doctor diagnosed "anxiety/ severe stress due to singular external stress factor (= HMRC)".
Prescribed anxiety pills and anti-depressants plus providing phone number for Samaritans.

Which was nice to having in writing. Both diagnosis and prescriptions are now in the tax folder -
for whomever it may concern when I am not around anymore....

Am refusing to take the pills because the stress is EXTERNAL and I have told HMRC in no uncertain terms my life is in their hands now, literally: Bankrupt me => Ruin my career => An existential threat, literally!

Whether or not they listen (they should, as they have - in theory - a "duty of care" for the customers) is a different thing. If not, then there is no point, end off:

The end may be nigh - possibly very soon.

[BrownOwl]

An invalid Accelerated Payment Notice is not the same as an explicit item within an Finance Bill - if you think it is then you need to understand why one can be fought (as its incorrectly applied application of the law) and one is a complete waste of time (you are fighting policy as agreed by parliament)...

As for getting a group together - the 2019 charge has been known about for 18 months yet only now are you looking at doing something...

The 2019 Charge may have been drafted for a long time but I'm not sure they could ask for a Judicial Review on the draft and probably had to wait for it to become legislation which looks to be quite recently.

[BrownOwl]

Yep - I don't work for HMRC. I don't advise contractors. About a year or so ago I decided not to do a PhD (and it wasn't just about DR schemes for contractors but behaviours around tax avoidance more generally).

My day job involves DR but that is a small part of it. I have spent a lot of time - and I mean a lot of time - understanding it and its nuances, understanding the people who designed it and who manage it. I'm not prepared to say who I am. That shouldn't matter to anyone though as you'd be mad to take advice from an internet forum.

Why am I on these forums? To start with it was just watching people's attitude to tax avoidance. Pretty passive. Then as I read more I got more and more frustrated about some of the crap being said and so I started posting stuff. In particular, those threads that encourage more dodgy stuff or those that try to create uncertainty.

I do get some work-related benefit in that some of the things that people say make me think about something different or help me understand a particular nuances. I'm not a contractor, have never taken part in a tax avoidance scheme and do not have a financial stake in any of this. I recognise that some people will be stuffed because of the changes.

I also won't reply to PMs asking for personal advice but am happy to reply on a thread.

Do you work in the behavioural psychology arena, perchance?