CLSO - DEADLINE 30th JUNE

[LandRover]

A penalty is based on behaviours. If you deliberately concealed information about a scheme that is a behaviour that WILL be punished. If you have declared everything but HMRC can convince a judge that you have been "careless" by even entering a known tax avoidance scheme, then you could see a charge.

To be honest I am uncomfortable with registering for CLSO. Surely the scheme providers, if still around, have all the details necessary. You seem to be implying its our sole responsibility to supply all the necessary information around figures, when HMRC could take the figures from the scheme providers. If those figures entered are wrong by me, then won't that be deemed as a "careless" event? Can't we add TBC (To Be Confirmed) on the form?

[MercladUK]

For the very last time I will go over the legal/illegal argument.

You have an arrangement that in legal form says you have received a loan.

HMRC's argument is that the FACTS and CONTEXT applying to that legal form are such that any reasonable person would conclude it was not a loan but a payment of income. HMRC contend that the SUBSTANCE of the transaction should outweigh the FORM.

If they persuade a judge that this is the case, then the legal form of the loan agreement will be put aside for income tax purposes and instead you will be deemed to have received income.

You have done nothing illegal but the judge prefers to give greater weight to fact and context for income tax purposes.

They may find the opposite for IHT purposes.

So, my advice to you is, FORGET legal/illegal. It's a red herring and is just a minor part of the argument over whatever arrangement you used.

If you cling to the "everything I've done is legal and HMRC can whistle for their money", and ignore all other potential routes to finding an answer, my judgement is that eventually a court will decide whether to apply form over substance or vice versa.

If they decide the former, you have made a great call.

If they decide the latter and you have no other option, you will pay tax, interest and penalty on the alleged "loan".

At the moment, my OPINION - others are available - is that HMRC is perhaps 5 years from a decision. That is a window you should be using to prepare and generate options for yourself.

Webberg I know you are getting frustrated with this specific question but the above could also be queried against dividends drawn from a limited company? Or Starbucks paying tax in a more friendlier country.

Both are used to disguise the real outcome

[InNZ]

Sleeping Dog

So far, I have not received an APN. I know that colleagues who were in the (Edge) scheme at the same time have either received their APN, or the notice of imminent arrival of an APN and this was several weeks ago.

Is there a chance that HMRC are not going to send one, perhaps because I emigrated to NZ in 2005 and the amount is not (comparatively) that big? I know the postal service between UK & NZ can be slow, but I reckon that if mine was sent at the same time as my colleagues, I would have got it by now.

I'm just worried that sending in a CLSO request will wake up the sleeping dog.

[bstar1]

So far, I have not received an APN. I know that colleagues who were in the (Edge) scheme at the same time have either received their APN, or the notice of imminent arrival of an APN and this was several weeks ago.

Is there a chance that HMRC are not going to send one, perhaps because I emigrated to NZ in 2005 and the amount is not (comparatively) that big? I know the postal service between UK & NZ can be slow, but I reckon that if mine was sent at the same time as my colleagues, I would have got it by now.

I'm just worried that sending in a CLSO request will wake up the sleeping dog.

If I were you..."let sleeping dogs lie"

[DotasScandal]

Is there a chance that HMRC are not going to send one, perhaps because I emigrated to NZ in 2005 and the amount is not (comparatively) that big? I know the postal service between UK & NZ can be slow, but I reckon that if mine was sent at the same time as my colleagues, I would have got it by now.

Wishful thinking IMO.
They seem to be sending APNs out not by scheme, but by batches...a few members of each scheme at a time (it creates uncertainty and splinters resistance).

[webberg]

So far, I have not received an APN. I know that colleagues who were in the (Edge) scheme at the same time have either received their APN, or the notice of imminent arrival of an APN and this was several weeks ago.

Is there a chance that HMRC are not going to send one, perhaps because I emigrated to NZ in 2005 and the amount is not (comparatively) that big? I know the postal service between UK & NZ can be slow, but I reckon that if mine was sent at the same time as my colleagues, I would have got it by now.

I'm just worried that sending in a CLSO request will wake up the sleeping dog.

To the best of my knowledge there is no connection between CLSO and APN.

Different people in different teams doing different things.

[webberg]

Webberg I know you are getting frustrated with this specific question but the above could also be queried against dividends drawn from a limited company? Or Starbucks paying tax in a more friendlier country.

Both are used to disguise the real outcome

Dividends no, Starbucks yes but the rules for the latter are fearsomely complicated.

When I was working in a major bank, we had 12 people doing nothing except cross border stuff and the rules are certainly not easier now.

You also forget that Gideon Osbourne has relaxed all the corporate rules to encourage the behaviour of Starbucks and their kin.

[webberg]

To be honest I am uncomfortable with registering for CLSO. Surely the scheme providers, if still around, have all the details necessary. You seem to be implying its our sole responsibility to supply all the necessary information around figures, when HMRC could take the figures from the scheme providers. If those figures entered are wrong by me, then won't that be deemed as a "careless" event? Can't we add TBC (To Be Confirmed) on the form?

IT is YOUR responsibility.

Reliance upon another to supply information is the antithesis of SELF ASSESSMENT.

HMRC will use other sources to verify numbers, but the responsibility is very much yours.

[LandRover]

IT is YOUR responsibility.

Reliance upon another to supply information is the antithesis of SELF ASSESSMENT.

HMRC will use other sources to verify numbers, but the responsibility is very much yours.

Okay, so if I enter values that later on are found to be much different to what the scheme provider supplied to HMRC then is that a careless act?

What are the margins of error to be deemed careless? 10% 20%...

I am struggling to understand what the CLSO will achieve when HMRC have absolutely no attitude to negotiating a settlement. I appreciate your knowledge is far greater than mine in dealing with HMRC, so are you stating there is a positive to engaging by the CLSO when ultimately there is no way I would accept the CLSO when I have a possibility, however small, of recouping my APN payment?

[pimpernell]

Hi

Can someone advise pleas (Weberg??).

I engaged with hmrc via CLSO but have not yet filled in the D03. I asked HMRC specifically in regard to anCOP8 enquiry and would like to restrict what I declare on the DO3 to those tax years - ie put the COP8 enquiry reference on the form. Is that a legit approach?

I am talking about 2007-2008 tax year. I also received a COP8 for the previous tax year but was in the scheme prior to 2004 which was non DOTAS.

So what I'd be happy doing is declaring for the tax years which have open enquiry but not the others.

I don't have the numbers for the non open tax years in any case but do for the open tax years.

I can't help feel that hmrc will just use these numbers as an admission of guilt.