BIG GROUP

[webberg]

Any details on what the plan, steps, and possible outcome/ conclusions are?

Not sure without some sort of framework any new member can establish suitability.

Not at this time.

The present membership has paid for the IP and advice and therefore the plan belongs to them. I cannot divulge it without compromising their position.

The purpose of the notice was to advise those who may have been holding back that we are executing the plan regardless and if you want to join then there is a deadline.

If you join, we will explain the plan.

If you don't like the potential outcomes or deem them too unlikely, then there is no obligation to go further.

[luxCon]

The present membership has paid for the IP and advice and therefore the plan belongs to them. I cannot divulge it without compromising their position.


If you join, we will explain the plan.

If you don't like the potential outcomes or deem them too unlikely, then there is no obligation to go further.

So in order to get to know what I'm paying for, I have to pay for it first, and then I know what I've paid for.

Will I get the joining fee back as well if I don't like the thing I paid for that I didn't know I need before I paid for the thing that I wasn't told what it was?

[webberg]

So in order to get to know what I'm paying for, I have to pay for it first, and then I know what I've paid for.

Will I get the joining fee back as well if I don't like the thing I paid for that I didn't know I need before I paid for the thing that I wasn't told what it was?

You have to join the group to get information, yes. That is £200.

Will you get that back? No.

Otherwise, you could join, learn what we have, leave, get your money back and take the idea elsewhere. That makes no sense.

[ChimpMaster]

Webberg

Assuming:

- Loans from EBTs
- 3 closed years from pre-2011 (i.e. no open enquiry)
- not notified as DOTAs scheme (no number)

Is it better to settle now or to await the 2019 loan charge?

I'm assuming settle now, because no NICS or tax on promoter's fees. But of course 2019 charge isn't clear yet so is there hope yet?

[webberg]

Webberg

Assuming:

- Loans from EBTs
- 3 closed years from pre-2011 (i.e. no open enquiry)
- not notified as DOTAs scheme (no number)

Is it better to settle now or to await the 2019 loan charge?

I'm assuming settle now, because no NICS or tax on promoter's fees. But of course 2019 charge isn't clear yet so is there hope yet?

It's a calculation you need to do.

HMRC claim that a voluntary settlement will carry interest (illegal) so that will add 3% per annum.

There is not as yet any legislation asking for NIC on the 2019 charge.

There never was any prospect of tax on promoters fees being vaguely legal.

I would say that in terms of the legality or otherwise of HMRC's position and the fact that the amount of liability is probably pretty close in either case and HMRC has no prospect of reopening a closed year, then it may be best to wait until the 2019 charge (due to be paid January 2020?)

However, that is over 2 years away and there is an emotional component here that only you can judge.

[ChimpMaster]

It's a calculation you need to do.

HMRC claim that a voluntary settlement will carry interest (illegal) so that will add 3% per annum.

There is not as yet any legislation asking for NIC on the 2019 charge.

There never was any prospect of tax on promoters fees being vaguely legal.

I would say that in terms of the legality or otherwise of HMRC's position and the fact that the amount of liability is probably pretty close in either case and HMRC has no prospect of reopening a closed year, then it may be best to wait until the 2019 charge (due to be paid January 2020?)

However, that is over 2 years away and there is an emotional component here that only you can judge.

Thanks, I appreciate your honesty. The emotional aspect is a strong point for me, but there would have to be complete closure from HMRC

3% interest would be a game changer for me. I can't figure out how HMRC could justify this on a voluntary payment for closed years. But then again, they seem to get away with anything.

But on their link below under section 2.1, it says : "Late payment interest is due for protected years. No late payment interest will be payable on voluntary restitution." So, given that my years never had an open enquiry, sure they are not protected.

https://www.gov.uk/government/public...ttlement-terms

[webberg]

Thanks, I appreciate your honesty. The emotional aspect is a strong point for me, but there would have to be complete closure from HMRC

3% interest would be a game changer for me. I can't figure out how HMRC could justify this on a voluntary payment for closed years. But then again, they seem to get away with anything.

But on their link below under section 2.1, it says : "Late payment interest is due for protected years. No late payment interest will be payable on voluntary restitution." So, given that my years never had an open enquiry, sure they are not protected.

https://www.gov.uk/government/public...ttlement-terms

I agree that the settlement terms issued 7/11/17 indicate that no interest will be due on voluntary payments for closed years. We have seen examples of HMRC requesting this however and refusing to accept settlement unless it's paid.

The settlement is unlikely to be FINAL unless you can deal with the loans at the same time. It depends who you were with as some lenders cooperate and some don't.

If you cannot get the loans dealt with IHT may arise at a later time. It's possible also that if the loan remains unpaid a 2019 charge might kick in post settlement. Read section 5 of the document you tagged. HMRC has to date refused to confirm that a settlement will remove that liability.

I'm afraid that this is a twilight zone and one in which HMRC can change from saving angel to soul eating demon in the same conversation.

[jbryce]

So in order to get to know what I'm paying for, I have to pay for it first, and then I know what I've paid for.

Will I get the joining fee back as well if I don't like the thing I paid for that I didn't know I need before I paid for the thing that I wasn't told what it was?

You are kidding, right? Whats your liability? Probably north of 30K or you wouldn't be here.
So £18 pcm and a couple of hundred joining fee are too much to join? For 6 month membership that's about 1% of your liability or 3 months of the interest on your liability.

Most of us have been swirling around in this sh** for years, frankly, BG has saved quite a lot of people's sanity.

[ChimpMaster]

I agree that the settlement terms issued 7/11/17 indicate that no interest will be due on voluntary payments for closed years. We have seen examples of HMRC requesting this however and refusing to accept settlement unless it's paid.

The settlement is unlikely to be FINAL unless you can deal with the loans at the same time. It depends who you were with as some lenders cooperate and some don't.

If you cannot get the loans dealt with IHT may arise at a later time. It's possible also that if the loan remains unpaid a 2019 charge might kick in post settlement. Read section 5 of the document you tagged. HMRC has to date refused to confirm that a settlement will remove that liability.

I'm afraid that this is a twilight zone and one in which HMRC can change from saving angel to soul eating demon in the same conversation.

Thanks Webberg.

The employer has long since gone but the Trust remains, though I'm not sure who holds the debt because an intermediate company was used to pay off the Trust loan - and that company liquidated in 2013... it's an interesting challenge

So it might never be possible to deal with the loan, assuming it still exists!

Given all of this and the information you have kindly provided above, settlement now seems pointless, though I fear worse treatment under the 2019 charge.

[starstruck]

Given all of this and the information you have kindly provided above, settlement now seems pointless, though I fear worse treatment under the 2019 charge.

So, after much research, this is a summary of what I have been able to find out about settlement vs loan charge for closed years.

Settlement of closed years seems quite clear now: Closed years can be settled at PAYE only as if loans were income in year made. No interest, no NI, no tax on promoter fees. A large chunk will likely be taxed at lower rate. This will be a voluntary payment but loan charge will not apply afterwards.

Loan charge is unclear; educated guesses from experts are it will be PAYE and NI as if loans were income-ish in 2018/19 tax year; no interest. A large chunk will likely be taxed at higher rate therefore. I say income-ish as experts think it unlikely you will be able to offset pension payments against this as you can with "real" income.

If it boils down to a choice between the two; settlement is likely to be (perhaps significantly) less tax due. It depends upon your earnings back then vs next year but the tax rates used could be very different (20% vs 45% + NI). If you have a Ltd you may be able to reduce your 2018/19 earnings to mitigate some cost.

However, the loan change is still very unclear, there are no specifics on how the debt will be transferred from employer to employee or how the numbers should be calculated when done so, so it would appear it is impossible to make a true comparison at this point in time.

Deadline to register interest in latest settlement opportunity is May next year. So still a few months before any decisions need to be made.

I can't get much clarity on IHT for either option; apparently it depends upon the scheme, charge seems to be 1% of loan value between when made and when waived. Questions over depreciating currencies and what amounts to use. No idea if there is interest between when waived and now. I thought at one point it only applied to loans waived after 2011 but now I'm not so sure. This part seems to be clear as mud.

I hope that helps.