Farage vs Clegg

[DodgyAgent]

We have to pay EDF prices, just like UK, and its at least equally expensive as a % of family budget (it used to be very cheap when I was young and we had domestic supplier)

Poland got into clutches of Chevron only recently. People in UK struggle with designs of Haliburton.

Poland made its own choice about bringing Chevron in to develop it gas potential, what is wrong with that?

[vetran]

I imagined a preferential visa system where you can apply for travel & work visas with a high likelihood that you would be granted one within the EU (assuming a clean record etc) if there is a suitable demand but settlement is more difficult with lower net worth.

Yes if badly managed it will be unpopular but it doesn't have to be.

[DodgyAgent]

I know; open borders all in one go present huge practical problems and we've seen some of the problems, in a small way, in Europe, so I don't support wholesale immediate, and certainly not unilateral removval of borders. However, in general I think the world has been moving more and more toward restrictions on migration in the last 40 to 50 years, and now we've reached the point that Europe is building walls around itself and nations within Europe are threatening to do the same. I want to see that trend reversed, and gradual moves toward more freedom for people to migrate.

As for 'cultural factors'; many of the restrictions on migration that you have in the UK or in fact all over the EU today have only really been developed during our lifetimes, and although there were some limited restrictions before then, it's really in the 20th century that governments started structurally impeding migration. How did British culture grow to be what it is before all these restrictions were put in place? How about other cultures that grew and thrived without these restrictions?

You say you support free markets. I support freedom.

One man's freedom is another mans oppression. The free movement of labour is not a freedom at all. The reason people did not migrate much in the early part of the last century is because a lack of knowledge about other countries and a lack of transport cheap enough to get them there.

The EU needs to stimulate the movement of labour within its own borders first before it starts opening its borders. there are enough highly talented Romanian IT developers to rid us of every Indian ICT worker overnight.

[Mich the Tester]

So in other words you're not a free marketeer at all.
Only when it suits you.

Maybe he's a closet socialist. Maybe he wants Big Mr Government to protect him against the competition from foreign labour and he wants YOU and every other taxpayer to pay the taxes that build the walls that keep out nasty Johnny Foreigner Agent who might be able to do his job better or cheaper than him. A bit like British Leyland in the 70s, protected by inport tariffs that ultimately killed them when their cars became so utterly backdated and tulip that it was still cheaper and more attractive to pay the import tariffs and buy a Toyota. It's socialism dressed up as conservatism.

[Mich the Tester]

One man's freedom is another mans oppression. The free movement of labour is not a freedom at all. The reason people did not migrate much in the early part of the last century is because a lack of knowledge about other countries and a lack of transport cheap enough to get them there.

The EU needs to stimulate the movement of labour within its own borders first before it starts opening its borders. there are enough highly talented Romanian IT developers to rid us of every Indian ICT worker overnight.

First bit; nonsense, there was lots of migration in the 18th, 19th and early 20th centuries. That's why the USA exists, Australia became rich, Manchester had machinery to become the industrial capital of the world (factories built by German engineers), Britain had huge factories churning out pretty much anything and the people to man the ships that brought it around the world. Cheap mass transport was actually plentiful, if a little uncomfortable and slow, in the form of ships and trains and millions of people used them to move around the world.

Second bit; yes, you're absolutely right that the EU needs to stimulate (or perhaps, because that's a bit statist, just remove restrictions on) movement of labour within it's own borders. You won't achieve that by leaving the EU.

Anyway, when it comes to deciding whch labour should be available where, do you believe that the government knows best?

[mos]

Unfortunately if you remove the restrictions on low value Labour you get a race for the bottom on wages for the people at the bottom.

you are not a IT contractor, are you?

[vetran]

FTFY. Like Germany 1930s.

or you see a small number of people travelling and the others riding the prosperity they create.

Its the rich man and friends at the restaurant scenario again.

Of course if there is an opportunity for low value migrants then they can apply for a Visa. Just like the NHS workers & Bus drivers in the 50s.

Germany of course had far worse problems than limited immigration and a government that was specifically stirring up resentment to allow them to attain their vile goals.

[Mich the Tester]

Of course if there is an opportunity for low value migrants then they can apply for a Visa. Just like the NHS workers & Bus drivers in the 50s.

How do you know who the 'low value migrants' are? If there's nobody to drive the bus but 50 people wanting to get to work, then a bus driver is very 'high value'. How do you know which 'low value migrants' will remain so? How about those Ugandans and Indians who came along, set up restaurants, drove taxis or cleaned up tulip in hospitals and then went on to become the richest gourp of people in the UK? Have they possibly brought some benefit? I think they have, but I don't think anybody in the immigration service would have had the foresight to imagine that back in the 70s.

And how do you ensure that the government makes economically and legally correct judgments on who gets in when they can't control any other market and they don't know their arse from their elbow most of the time?

[mos]

Poland made its own choice about bringing Chevron in to develop it gas potential, what is wrong with that?

Developed? You are ignoramus! Fracking was very well known as one of the sources of energy in Poland, but along with lignite was not preferred because of environmental consideration. I have learnt that at school. Comprehensive geological survey on fracking potential was conducted in 1980s. Now Chevron tells people around the world that THEY found it!

And fyi, our government is even more corrupt then your government (but you are getting there). Don't you dare saying that its Polish people who invited them. We are chasing them out of our homeland.

[vetran]

How do you know who the 'low value migrants' are? If there's nobody to drive the bus but 50 people wanting to get to work, then a bus driver is very 'high value'. How do you know which 'low value migrants' will remain so? How about those Ugandans and Indians who came along, set up restaurants, drove taxis or cleaned up tulip in hospitals and then went on to become the richest gourp of people in the UK? Have they possibly brought some benefit? I think they have, but I don't think anybody in the immigration service would have had the foresight to imagine that back in the 70s.

And how do you ensure that the government makes economically and legally correct judgments on who gets in when they can't control any other market and they don't know their arse from their elbow most of the time?

or you can open the door and sit back & watch the fireworks ....