Conservative MP wants even more Bobs to be let in

[sasguru]

Nonsense. Up until about 10-15 years ago there were very few overseas people in any of the software houses in which I worked and certainly no Indians. In my current client co EVERY new starter without exception has been Indian. While I concede that there are more IT companies than 10 years ago, this doesn't explain this transformation in the working demographic. What does, though, is the fact that they are cheap and take preference over locals.

I'll ignore your cheap shot at the uneducated working class because I just can't be bothered...

If all the new starters in your current client are Indian that suggests to me that the work they're doing is commodity work, not the brainy work I'm talking about, since the Indians we get here are third rate.
What does your client do?
But look at the successful US software houses, where all the first rate Indians go.

And what cheap shot at the uneducated working classes are you talking about?
basically anyone in this country who wants an education bad enough can get one, there are enough opportunities. I'm sorry but if the limit of your ambition is that your kids go down t'pit just like you did, you deserve all you get.

[DodgyAgent]

Actually this is NOT a valid point.

Here's an explanation of why.

In the past we had a system whereby 1 brainy person could provide jobs for millions of stupid people e.g. someone invents the internal combustion engine, loads of car companies arise, employing thickos to screw in the same door year after year.
Now, in a knowledge economy that doesn't work. Almost everyone who works in Google or GSK or any of the growth, knowledge companies has to be clever.
And in the UK we are very good at educating clever people.
Problem is there aren't enough clever local people (say with an IQ >120) for the demand that knowledge companies create.
Hence the need for brainy immigrants.
Go to any company that needs an MSc minimum, like my current client, and it's like the UN in there - they couldn't possibly fill all the roles with locals.

This problem will only become worse - those with better cognitive abilities (regardless of nationality) will become the new elite as the century (and complexity) advances, in demand all over the world.

So you believe that every intelligent human being capable of writing computer programs is swept up by the education system in the UK?

[expat]

Then it's time for HM Government to discuss with the Indian government to improve those terms, not time for them to close the borders to Indian and Chinese businesspeople or skilled immigrants and students.

This isn't about fairness; it's about how the UK is going earn a living in a world with very different economic superpowers to the last 100 years.

Exactly.

Either you let those workers in, and your economy works better but many people can't find a job; or you don't, and your economy gets worse and many people can't find a job.

It IS a problem that many people can't find a job, but it's not the same problem.

[sasguru]

So you believe that every intelligent human being capable of writing computer programs is swept up by the education system in the UK?

The majority of commoditised programming doesn't require much brains or even education (look at the posters on here), just a kind of mulish tenacity at trial and error.
That's the kind of stuff that employers are replacing locals with Bobs. The Bobs are crap but it doesn't make much difference to the business since its not business critical.
I'm not saying that's right, just how it is.
And the ones moaning the most are the ones at the bottom of the heap.
Creating a new intelligent machine learning algorithm, for example, is a whole different kettle of fish.
In fact IT is splitting up into simply piping data from one place to another with a few enhancements on the way to adding intelligence to that data. The Bobs are nowhere to be seen in the latter, yet.

[sasguru]

It IS a problem that many people can't find a job, but it's not the same problem.

Yet many employers say its a skills shortage holding them back. Sort of proves my point: loads of vacancies, load of jobseekers. No match because the latter generally don't have the cognitive ability required by the former.
I don't know what the solution is - I can see a dystopia where the clever take all.

For people with the right skills, the recession never happened.

[sasguru]

I agree that China and India will become more dominant, but I don't see them overtaking the US any time soon, US has double the GDP, is the most technologically advanced country and has thousands more nukes than China.

Things happen fast in the modern world - the US has 17 trillion dollars in debt and is becoming increasingly polarised politically. If it carries on the way it is, the US seems to me the major instability-causing agent in the world, not Al Qaeda and the like.

[CoolCat]

Things happen fast in the modern world - the US has 17 trillion dollars in debt and is becoming increasingly polarised politically. If it carries on the way it is, the US seems to me the major instability-causing agent in the world, not Al Qaeda and the like.

sas,

you really should shut up and listen to other people occasionally.

ffs where on earth you get these half cocked ideas from is beyond me.

in the case of your education you should ask for the money back as they clearly didnt do a half decent job.

[sasguru]

sas,

you really should shut up and listen to other people occasionally.

ffs where on earth you get these half cocked ideas from is beyond me.

in the case of your education you should ask for the money back as they clearly didnt do a half decent job.

Maybe you should take your own advice.
My opinions come from 25 years experience in this field, an ability to see the bigger picture and an analytical approach.
What I don't do is say "woe is me" and look for scapegoats.
Also, my education was good enough that I don't have to worry about Bobs, like you do.
Perhaps you should examine yourself a bit more, rather than unintelligently blaming other people.

[DodgyAgent]

The majority of commoditised programming doesn't require much brains or even education (look at the posters on here), just a kind of mulish tenacity at trial and error.
That's the kind of stuff that employers are replacing locals with Bobs. The Bobs are crap but it doesn't make much difference to the business since its not business critical.
I'm not saying that's right, just how it is.
And the ones moaning the most are the ones at the bottom of the heap.
Creating a new intelligent machine learning algorithm, for example, is a whole different kettle of fish.
In fact IT is splitting up into simply piping data from one place to another with a few enhancements on the way to adding intelligence to that data. The Bobs are nowhere to be seen in the latter, yet.

That does not answer my question. You have asserted that there are no people with the required amount of intellect to fill "shortage" jobs. We are part of the EU and if we have not got enough people already in the UK then we should be making our first port of call to the other European countries. There is no need whatsoever to go to India for skilled people.

[russell]

Things happen fast in the modern world - the US has 17 trillion dollars in debt and is becoming increasingly polarised politically. If it carries on the way it is, the US seems to me the major instability-causing agent in the world, not Al Qaeda and the like.

I agree with what you say regarding US politics, been following it closely the last few months, the hue and cry over obamacare from the right insane. They will settle for no less than Obama impeachment and Obamacare repealed. Next years mid terms will be interesting.