Immigration - social trouble on its way

[Spartacus]

I have taken the lesson to heart and marched my Polish worker off-site. The expensive and slow local will be engaged to complete the task tomorrow.

Spartacus in "seeing the light" mode.

[Viktor]

Everyone complains about the levels of immigration, fecking govt etc.
But a country needs solutions not complaints. So what has to be done in UK NOW to prevent problems arising in the future?

1. UK can require a work permit for each person coming from EU - is this feasible???

2. We can split EU in two - "the riches" and "the poor" - require work permits for "poor" - full rights for "riches" - is this correct??

3. Don't give to the foreign workers the same level of benefits given to locals - not until several years. If you are a foreigner you shouldn't claim benefits after 6 months - this is common sense.

4. Full rights of TRAVEL for each EU member state, but an interview/visa in order to have work/self employment rights. A points immigration system based on education, level of experience, language knowledge, level of income (in this order). I don't see the point why a French should be given more rights than a Slovakian for example. Let everyone compete in the market WITH THE SAME CONDITIONS - but every EU state could favor some job profiles where there is a shortage.

I personally would say a combination of 3 and 4 - but with a CLEAR points based immigration system, valid for everyone.

Am I missing something?

Victor

One of the Eastern Europeans

[mcquiggd]

Leave the EU. It's corrupt, expensive, and vindictive.

[stackpole]

Everyone complains about the levels of immigration, fecking govt etc.
But a country needs solutions not complaints. So what has to be done in UK NOW to prevent problems arising in the future?

<snip 4 over-complicated solutions>

Am I missing something?

Yes you are. We are full up. Think roads, power, water, public transport, housing.

First, how about only letting in the same number as those that emigrate?

Second, only let in those who apply and get approval before they come here. Anyone else who turns up at any of our ports are turned right round and sent back. No appeals.

There's a workable solution for you. It satisfies everyone, and is so simple that even HMG might have a chance of getting it half-right.

[snaw]

Yes you are. We are full up. Think roads, power, water, public transport, housing.

First, how about only letting in the same number as those that emigrate?

Second, only let in those who apply and get approval before they come here. Anyone else who turns up at any of our ports are turned right round and sent back. No appeals.

There's a workable solution for you. It satisfies everyone, and is so simple that even HMG might have a chance of getting it half-right.

Fist, what about all those retiring? As the population gets older we need immigrants (Or more women giving birth) to prop up the increasingly elderly population. The you've got the issue of emigrants those who come back, which I suspect is a fair number of people - do they have to wait also?

Second, completely agree. Except for the genuine political refugees who are in danger of being killed if they go back. Controversial on this board I know, but that's the looney lefty in me.

Problem with this simple solution is the EU freedom of movement/labour thing. It's illegal under EU law to restrict it within the EU so to avoid the problem we'd have to withdraw from the EU. That's a whole different kettle of fish, and simply isn't going to happen any time soon, not too mention has some pretty major implications beyond reducing our immigration levels ...

[Bagpuss]

Leave the EU. It's corrupt, expensive, and vindictive.

And will all the big businesses (that employ the majority of the contractors on this board) please turn off the light switches as they leave the UK!

[stackpole]

Fist, what about all those retiring? As the population gets older we need immigrants (Or more women giving birth) to prop up the increasingly elderly population.

We hear that argument a lot, but it is fundamentally flawed. Immigrants also get old and retire, adding to the problem. It will require an ever-increasing number of immigrants a year to keep up, leading to an uncontrolled pyramid situation.

The population gets older because it is living longer. If it is living longer it can work longer.

The you've got the issue of emigrants those who come back, which I suspect is a fair number of people - do they have to wait also?

They already qualify. They are knocked off the quota.

Second, completely agree. Except for the genuine political refugees who are in danger of being killed if they go back. Controversial on this board I know, but that's the looney lefty in me.

I agree, but claimants cause our biggest headaches. 90% of the ones we've had over the past eight years are in no such danger. Process them offshore, before they get here, or not at all.

Problem with this simple solution is the EU freedom of movement/labour thing. It's illegal under EU law to restrict it within the EU so to avoid the problem we'd have to withdraw from the EU. That's a whole different kettle of fish, and simply isn't going to happen any time soon, not too mention has some pretty major implications beyond reducing our immigration levels ...

We just do it. Countries in the EU flout the EU laws all the time when it suits them. It can be done if HMG want it enough. Remember that every other EU country apart from us has restricted the influx of the new eastern Europeans, and that was within the laws.

[DimPrawn]

First, what about all those retiring? As the population gets older we need immigrants (Or more women giving birth) to prop up the increasingly elderly population.

As these immigrants grow older, who is going to look after them? More immigrants of course to look after our children and theirs. Who is going to look after all our children as they grow old? More immigrants of course.

Can you see a flaw in this logic for a country with a very high population density, water shortages, transport issues, housing shortages, power/fuel supply issues and collapsing public services?

No, thought not.

[snaw]

The immigrants/aging population thing is a fact. All very well saying people can work till an older age but what if they don't want to - you can't force people not to retire. The baby boomers are fast heading for retirement, and when they do someone has to help provide because current birth rates aren't anywhere near high enough to support this impending demographic shift.

That's not to say I'm in favour of unfettered immigration, but to say the arguement for immigration is flawed is hiding from an unescapable demographic fact. Or even better follow the French lead on this one and make it easier for working mums to have kids and encourage a sensible policy to encourage more people to have them, younger (Though how you stop the teenage mums doing it for the money I dunno).

[Viktor]

Remember that every other EU country apart from us has restricted the influx of the new eastern Europeans, and that was within the laws.[/QUOTE]

Let me give you the current list:

Sweden
Ireland
Spain
Portugal
Italy
Greece
Finland
United Kingdom

I wonder what happened in Ireland and Sweden since 2004...