Immigration - social trouble on its way

[DodgyAgent]

But why are you blaming this on "the north"? Your scenario isn't one I recognise. There are many thriving economic regions outside of the South East you know, have a look around before you start to stereotype.

I am not blaming it on the North I am blaming it on the divisiveness of socialism. I agree about your thriving areas outside of London and the South East but why then are there so many people unemployed in these regions when there are so many tens of thousands of Eastern Europeans taking up jobs? The reason is welfare. The ambitious scots and the ambitious northerners are the few who either are entrepreneurial or have the wit and determination to seek work in the South East. Those that are left are stuck with public sector jobs or unemployment.

[xoggoth]

There are indeed some areas outside the SE that are more dynamic but hardly lots and for the most part Dodgy is not far wrong. Check these links.

Edinburgh guide

North East




Figures from the Centre for Economics and Business Research show that in southern regions, dependence on the state has barely risen, while in northern areas it has jumped dramatically.

The regional breakdown shows that the North-East now relies for 61.5 per cent of its economic output on the public sector.

The figures are in sharp contrast to the South-East, where private enterprise is the main generator of income.

Business leaders said the figures for the North-East renewed worries that the public sector was "crowding out" the wealth-creating private sector.

Sir Digby Jones, the director general of the Confederation of British Industry, said: "I'm very worried about this.

"The private sector is responsible for around 62 per cent of GDP in China - a communist, totalitarian regime."

[DodgyAgent]

We have had this arguement, and as usual you didn't listen then so I doubt you'll listen now. I never said they should have been supported, at any point. I've always said that once she'd ripped them apart these areas got completely neglected, we now see the effects from this. It could have been done in a completely different way is the case I've always stated.

You've got a nerve now blaming those same people for the economic disaster that befell them, a complete lack of knowledge in stating that they should leave to get work elsewhere (Many do), and an utter lack of understanding of community outside of the priveleged south - not everyone has the inclination, the money or the desire to move to the south of England to chase a job. This doesn't make them social parasites any more than the poles who stay in Poland are, for choosing not to leave the place they know best.

Your comments on Scotland I find grossly offensive, and as per usual completely uniformed - you really don't have the capability to see the world outside of your narrow little tunnel vision, do you? There are plenty of Scottish entrepreneurs, something we have a rich tradition in, and calling the workforce a "so called work force is a drug/alcohol crazed population of no hopers thanks to the curse of welfare" completely misses the truth, not to mention being pretty feckin insulting to a large number of people - wtf makes you so special you can denegrate others in this manner?

The jobs are in the South East cause it's the base for most of the major industries/services in the UK. London is a world leader in many areas, and subsequently get's all the talent, the local region reaps the benefits. The entrepreneurial spirit you mention is fueled by a large percentage of this talent, a lot of which doesn't come from the SE but instead moves here because that's where the opportunities are. There are plenty of pockets in Scotland where this is true also, and a few in the SE where the reverse is true. If you give people the opportunities then many will take them.

You quoting Lithuania is just plain fecking funny. It's unemployment figures are down for two major reason's - mass emigration since joining the EU, and foreign investment because of cheap labour (Not something Scotland can compete with unfortunately), it still has serious issues with long term unemployed (ANd about the same unemploymed rate as Scotland). It helps there is a government in place who make it easy for business too come there, I'd be all for that in Scotland too but it's a bit much to blame the people you condemn for this not happening - I'm not so certain it's something they have complete control over ...

Quite apart from your patronising "protection (as if they need you to protect them) of the unemployed of Scotland and The North of England". "Listen I am one of them dont you know" I can say what I like but you cant cos mate I am one of them. bollox

Just a few points. Just how exactly could the miners, car workers and printers have been let down gently? Particularly when they were being exploited by a bunch of uncompromising union leaders who were using these battles to fight a class war?

Secondly why is it 3.7 million workers show no sign of wanting to take up the jobs that are being done by Eastern Europeans ? Particularly in Scotland

I am not blaming the people at all. The unemployed are innatly as capable as you or I. I am blaming your self serving socialist friends who exploit the unemployed by keeping them on welfare and thus stripping them of aspirations, confidence and ultimatly their dignity. You people call this "looking after the poor!!!". I call it finding people who are poor and finding people who could be poor and then keeping them poor. After all no one is going to condemn people who are seen to be giving out money even though giving is one of the worst things you can do to a human being.

You are a confused snob snaw. You think that just because you come from a working class background you are above criticism. Your guilt about your roots and your relative success is played out by ypour support for a system that denies your so called fellow working class "brother" the opportunity to escape (as you have) from the clutches of the state.

[Fungus]

As for who's fault it is - I think you're way off the mark. If you're gonna blame someone for this then Maggie Thatcher can take a fair share of that blame, there were plenty of hard working people where I'm from when I grew up, who would all have been happy to take jobs on offer. Except she came along and destroyed the local industries, and gave nothing in return. By the time the 'socialists' got into power the unemployment blackspots and social problems were well and truly entrenched.

You mean like the mines? Destroyed by Scargill who tried to use them for his own narrow political ends.

You mean like British Leyland? Destroyed by militant unions. Though the final breath was a long time coming.

You mean like BT? Floated off by Mrs T. and a great success.

Or Rolls Royce? A great success story, being one of the largest suppliers of aero engines for commercial airliners.

Or British Aerospace?

Or Vodaphone? Created by Mrs T. giving a telecoms licence to an upstart namely Racal Instruments. And look how successful they are.

Or Nissan in Sunderland? A Japanese company, and I think the world's most productive Nissan factory.

There are many great companies in the UK.

She (Mrs T.) did not destroy industries. What she did do was stop the creation of non-jobs by the state. Unfortunately Flash Gordon has undone that and we now have a massive public sector with fantastic pension rights which we will pay for. No doubt they will vote New Liar.

I loathe the dependency so beloved of Socialists. I think the problem with the North is that there is still a lack of self confidence, which manifests itself as class hatred, jealousy and a lack of entrepreneurial spirit among all too many.

[xoggoth]

Cant be bothered with all this, not in mood. Accordingly I am nominating Dodgy as my spokesman as not a damn thing on the basic principles I disagree with.

PS Although naturally I would have said it much nicer about it!

[Fungus]

Cant be bothered with all this, not in mood. Accordingly I am nominating Dodgy as my spokesman as not a damn thing on the basic principles I disagree with.

PS Although naturally I would have said it much nicer about it!

Yeah. I second that. We want Dodgy for President, Emperor and lifelong God. All hail Dodgy.

[DodgyAgent]

Yeah. I second that. We want Dodgy for President, Emperor and lifelong God. All hail Dodgy.

I will as part of my manifesto to clean up politics begin by removing the word tax from the English vocabulary. It will be replaced by:










































MARGINS

[Bagpuss]

There are indeed some areas outside the SE that are more dynamic but hardly lots and for the most part Dodgy is not far wrong. Check these links.

Edinburgh guide

North East




Figures from the Centre for Economics and Business Research show that in southern regions, dependence on the state has barely risen, while in northern areas it has jumped dramatically.

The regional breakdown shows that the North-East now relies for 61.5 per cent of its economic output on the public sector.

The figures are in sharp contrast to the South-East, where private enterprise is the main generator of income.

Business leaders said the figures for the North-East renewed worries that the public sector was "crowding out" the wealth-creating private sector.

Sir Digby Jones, the director general of the Confederation of British Industry, said: "I'm very worried about this.

"The private sector is responsible for around 62 per cent of GDP in China - a communist, totalitarian regime."

Ahh I see we're talking about the North East and extrapolating to the whole of 'the north'. Of course the (numerous) successful people of places like Cheshire and North Yorks (for example) might disagree. If I had only ever been to Basingstoke/Harlow/High Wycombe/East Kent/South East London/East London I might be spouting stereotypes about the deprevation and welfare dependency in the south, of course I know there are some nice areas too, in between the sh1t holes.

[snaw]

Quite apart from your patronising "protection (as if they need you to protect them) of the unemployed of Scotland and The North of England". "Listen I am one of them dont you know" I can say what I like but you cant cos mate I am one of them. bollox

Just a few points. Just how exactly could the miners, car workers and printers have been let down gently? Particularly when they were being exploited by a bunch of uncompromising union leaders who were using these battles to fight a class war?

Secondly why is it 3.7 million workers show no sign of wanting to take up the jobs that are being done by Eastern Europeans ? Particularly in Scotland

I am not blaming the people at all. The unemployed are innatly as capable as you or I. I am blaming your self serving socialist friends who exploit the unemployed by keeping them on welfare and thus stripping them of aspirations, confidence and ultimatly their dignity. You people call this "looking after the poor!!!". I call it finding people who are poor and finding people who could be poor and then keeping them poor. After all no one is going to condemn people who are seen to be giving out money even though giving is one of the worst things you can do to a human being.

You are a confused snob snaw. You think that just because you come from a working class background you are above criticism. Your guilt about your roots and your relative success is played out by ypour support for a system that denies your so called fellow working class "brother" the opportunity to escape (as you have) from the clutches of the state.

I'm a confused snob?!?! You're half right, I'm confused with your logic in calling me a snob. I don't see how you come to the conclusion I believe above critisism, I got no guilt at all about my roots (I'm proud of them), and got no issues with my success nor anyone else's for that matter, more power to them. Typical DA - I'm sure it'll not sink in but you really need to stop making assumptions for others based on your own very limited world view. I don't think people who don't come from those roots are incapable of speaking for/about them, I just think YOU are. You've got zero idea of the reality, but lequally loads of patronising views on what's best for them.

Your points - the people you mention could have been let down gently by trying to encourage other industries to replace the ones destryoyed, there are many ways for governments to do this, but MT didn't give a toss about a group of people who were never going to win her any more seats. Witness the absolute collapse of the Tory party of Scotland during her reign. I have never argued for a continuation of those industries because clearly they had issues (And I've stated this to you many times, but you never feckin listen), I have repeatedly critisised the policies afterwards, which basically were ones of neglect. I blame the union leaders just as much for pursuing the path of conflict as much as they did, but that was never my fight and will never be. I grew up in the aftermath and it's that I have an issue with.

As for unemployment, I'm all for people helping themselves, and have no sympathy for people who abuse the system, but I don't make your assumption that those 3.7 million people are. The jobs available aren't distributed in the areas where they all live, and I don't believe people should have to decamp form their homes to do so.

The particularily in Scotland bit I think is the icing on the cake - London actually is the worst, and I imagine where most of the jobs are:

Unemployment in the UK, Jan-Mar 2006, by country/region

Country/Region LFS Unemployed (1000's) Rate of Unemployment (%)


London 301 7.6
North East 82 6.7
Yorks./Humberside 134 5.3
Scotland 139 5.3
West Midlands 137 5.1
North West 163 4.9
East Midlands 111 4.9
East 138 4.8
Wales 65 4.7
South East 191 4.4
N. Ireland 35 4.4
South West 92 3.6

Equally you waffle on about Lithunania as being a model of success, a country which still has an unemployment rate above ours, based partly on a huge exodus to the west and a long term unemployment rate which is extremaly high. There are better examples of socialist countries where the things you critisise have equally resulted in rip roaring success, and an amazing quality of life.

I don't for a second believe any of these issues are anything less than extremely complex, and influenced by a great number of factors. You on the other hand consistently on this board see them in black and white - stop welfare, provide education and the word will be a rosy place. Want to give us an example in the world of this Utopia you imagine or does it just esxist purely as a theory in your head?

Fungus - learn to read, no one was attacking privitisation or calling for a return to state ownership so save your pontificating on Mrs T's successes for another thread and stick to the topic at hand; though somehow we managed to get from immigration to DA banging on his again about his time tested theories on what's best for the underpriveleged in Britain.

[John Galt]

I'm a confused snob?!?! You're half right, I'm confused with your logic in calling me a snob. I don't see how you come to the conclusion I believe above critisism, I got no guilt at all about my roots (I'm proud of them), and got no issues with my success nor anyone else's for that matter, more power to them. Typical DA - I'm sure it'll not sink in but you really need to stop making assumptions for others based on your own very limited world view. I don't think people who don't come from those roots are incapable of speaking for/about them, I just think YOU are. You've got zero idea of the reality, but lequally loads of patronising views on what's best for them.

Your points - the people you mention could have been let down gently by trying to encourage other industries to replace the ones destryoyed, there are many ways for governments to do this, but MT didn't give a toss about a group of people who were never going to win her any more seats. Witness the absolute collapse of the Tory party of Scotland during her reign. I have never argued for a continuation of those industries because clearly they had issues (And I've stated this to you many times, but you never feckin listen), I have repeatedly critisised the policies afterwards, which basically were ones of neglect. I blame the union leaders just as much for pursuing the path of conflict as much as they did, but that was never my fight and will never be. I grew up in the aftermath and it's that I have an issue with.

As for unemployment, I'm all for people helping themselves, and have no sympathy for people who abuse the system, but I don't make your assumption that those 3.7 million people are. The jobs available aren't distributed in the areas where they all live, and I don't believe people should have to decamp form their homes to do so.

The particularily in Scotland bit I think is the icing on the cake - London actually is the worst, and I imagine where most of the jobs are:



Equally you waffle on about Lithunania as being a model of success, a country which still has an unemployment rate above ours, based partly on a huge exodus to the west and a long term unemployment rate which is extremaly high. There are better examples of socialist countries where the things you critisise have equally resulted in rip roaring success, and an amazing quality of life.

I don't for a second believe any of these issues are anything less than extremely complex, and influenced by a great number of factors. You on the other hand consistently on this board see them in black and white - stop welfare, provide education and the word will be a rosy place. Want to give us an example in the world of this Utopia you imagine or does it just esxist purely as a theory in your head?

Fungus - learn to read, no one was attacking privitisation or calling for a return to state ownership so save your pontificating on Mrs T's successes for another thread and stick to the topic at hand; though somehow we managed to get from immigration to DA banging on his again about his time tested theories on what's best for the underpriveleged in Britain.

But Snaw haven't you just defeated your own argument. If unemployment rates are highest in London and that is where all the jobs are either there are loads of scroungers around who are encouraged to remain so because of ludicrous benefit payments or there really are loads of jobs to go round and we don't need immigrants