Iran's 60 year war against Israel

[Fungus]

Strange. I can agree with much of your response.

Fungus: "They are militarily weak compared to Israel which is a thriving modern economy. Lebanon recently got rid of lots of Syrians thanks to a popular reaction against them."
DG: "But not obviously Hezbollah who were firing missiles into Israel, or perhaps that was just made up."

As I understand it the provocation for the current crises was an attack by Hezbollah which destroyed 1 tank, killed several soldiers and kidnapped two soldiers. That was minor compared to the action of Israel in Gaza. Only when Israel launched a war on Lebanon, bombing civilian targets in Beirut such as the airport, did Hezbollah launch rockets at Israel. (Which were launched in huge numbers with the express aim of killing civilians, whether Arab or Jew, child or adult, I don't wish to minimise how evil they are.)

DG: "Well yes, but Israel's reaction was relatively minor compared to the USA's attacks on Japan "

That does not make sense.

DG: "Israel does seem to have a you're for us or against us mentality but I think they're entitled to"

I understand full well why Israel is paranoid, and the paranoia is a large part of the problem. Jews have experienced pogroms throughout the centuries (including expulsion from England), and the Nazi Holocaust (and did Europe protest before WW2), and Israel has fought two major wars against the Arabs in 1967 and 1973 when their existence was threatened. But overreacting can create problems (or solve them in the case of the Iraqi reactor).

I feel that the US swallows Israeli rhetoric hook line and sinker, mainly because they play along to US fears.

Then again, I feel that Europe does not do enough to reform the Palestinian political groups which are often little more than pathetic disorganised thugs with no real long term strategy. Then again, the Jewish groups Irgun, Hagana and the Stern Gang were pretty nasty.

[snaw]

Strange. I can agree with much of your response.

Fungus: "They are militarily weak compared to Israel which is a thriving modern economy. Lebanon recently got rid of lots of Syrians thanks to a popular reaction against them."
DG: "But not obviously Hezbollah who were firing missiles into Israel, or perhaps that was just made up."

As I understand it the provocation for the current crises was an attack by Hezbollah which destroyed 1 tank, killed several soldiers and kidnapped two soldiers. That was minor compared to the action of Israel in Gaza. Only when Israel launched a war on Lebanon, bombing civilian targets in Beirut such as the airport, did Hezbollah launch rockets at Israel. (Which were launched in huge numbers with the express aim of killing civilians, whether Arab or Jew, child or adult, I don't wish to minimise how evil they are.)

DG: "Well yes, but Israel's reaction was relatively minor compared to the USA's attacks on Japan "

That does not make sense.

DG: "Israel does seem to have a you're for us or against us mentality but I think they're entitled to"

I understand full well why Israel is paranoid, and the paranoia is a large part of the problem. Jews have experienced pogroms throughout the centuries (including expulsion from England), and the Nazi Holocaust (and did Europe protest before WW2), and Israel has fought two major wars against the Arabs in 1967 and 1973 when their existence was threatened. But overreacting can create problems (or solve them in the case of the Iraqi reactor).

I feel that the US swallows Israeli rhetoric hook line and sinker, mainly because they play along to US fears.

Then again, I feel that Europe does not do enough to reform the Palestinian political groups which are often little more than pathetic disorganised thugs with no real long term strategy. Then again, the Jewish groups Irgun, Hagana and the Stern Gang were pretty nasty.

Sounds like a pretty fair assesmen to me, other than the US part. I think the US doesn't so much swallow Israeli rhetoric as being more complicit in pretty much any action which Israel chooses to undertake, for a number of reasons (Christian right, large Jewish population and influence in Washington, ideologically similar etc).

Personally I think this causes a fair amount of the problems - if Washington could take a tougher line occasionally with Israel then it wouldn't be quite as overly aggresive as it can be sometimes. As you say that's not too diminish from the other viewpoint - the other (Bigger) half of the issue is the convenience factor for most of the other regimes in the region which like things just the way they are so they can deflect attention from their domestic problems and have a proxy 'army' closer to Israel.

One thing I'm sure of, the only winners in this are the Muslim extremists. It doesn't matter how many you kill, all you end up doing is creating exponentially more in the long run.

[AlfredJPruffock]

The crises escalates following Israels attack on the UN observation post as China are now in the frame...

One of the dead was identified as Chinese U.N. observer Du Zhaoyu, China's official Xinhua News Agency reported.

The Chinese Foreign Ministry said Israel's ambassador to Beijing was summoned Wednesday morning and asked to convey China's request that Israel fully investigate the incident and issue an apology to the victim's relatives.

"We are deeply shocked by this incident and strongly condemn it," Chinese Foreign Ministry spokesman Liu Jianchao said in the statement.

The other three observers were from Austria, Canada and Finland but it wasn't clear which two were confirmed killed, U.N. and Lebanese military officials said.

Israel's U.N. Ambassador Dan Gillerman also expressed his "deep regret" for the deaths and denied Israel hit the post intentionally.

[NickIT]

So the UN peacekeepers tried to tell the Isreali's to stop...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/5217176.stm

Last Updated: Wednesday, 26 July 2006, 12:56 GMT 13:56 UK

Israel troops 'ignored' UN plea
Israeli strike in Khiam, south Lebanon
Israel had hit Khiam a number of times earlier on Tuesday
UN peacekeepers in south Lebanon contacted Israeli troops 10 times before an Israeli bomb killed four of them, an initial UN report says.

The post was hit by a precision-guided missile after six hours of shelling nearby, diplomats familiar with the initial probe into the deaths say.

The news came as crisis talks in Rome failed to call for an immediate ceasefire between Hezbollah and Israel.

Reports say up to 13 Israeli soldiers died in the latest fighting.

The four unarmed UN observers from Austria, Canada, China and Finland, died after their UN post was hit by an Israeli air strike on Tuesday.

The UN report says each time the UN contacted Israeli forces, they were assured the firing would stop.

Israel is conducting an investigation into the deaths, and has rejected accusations made by UN Secretary General Kofi Annan that the targeting of the UN position was "apparently deliberate".

In southern Lebanon, fierce clashes have continued between Israeli forces and Hezbollah fighters around the town of Bint Jbail.

Israel has not confirmed any deaths from among its soldiers, but says there have been 20 casualties.

[AlfredJPruffock]

Israel is conducting an investigation into the deaths, and has rejected accusations made by UN Secretary General Kofi Annan that the targeting of the UN position was "apparently deliberate".

Accidents Can Happen as Elvis Costello used to sing.

Imagine though it was Hezbollah that accidentally hit the UN observation post.

What would people have to say ?

Just fancy that.

[NickIT]

Israel is conducting an investigation into the deaths, and has rejected accusations made by UN Secretary General Kofi Annan that the targeting of the UN position was "apparently deliberate".

Accidents Can Happen as Elvis Costello used to sing.

Imagine though it was Hezbollah that accidentally hit the UN observation post.

What would people have to say ?

Just fancy that.

Accidents can happen in war; only a fool would say otherwise. However this observation point is well known the IDF and the Lebanese.

To ignore 10 warnings is pushing credibility as a mere accident though. Maybe there is an issue in the chain of command? Who knows.

Regarding Hezzbolah doing the same...my reaction would be the same.

[snaw]

Israel is conducting an investigation into the deaths, and has rejected accusations made by UN Secretary General Kofi Annan that the targeting of the UN position was "apparently deliberate".

Accidents Can Happen as Elvis Costello used to sing.

Imagine though it was Hezbollah that accidentally hit the UN observation post.

What would people have to say ?

Just fancy that.

What's your point?

I don't think either side has any moral high ground at the moment ...

[AlfredJPruffock]

What's your point?

I don't think either side has any moral high ground at the moment ...

If one thinks this is an accident then by the same token Saddam personally flew those planes into the Twin Towers.

Before the impact he parachuted out from the first plane into the second,and then down to an awaiting Iraqi jet fighter which took him back to Tehran.

I do have the pictures but for security reasons I am not in a position to disclose them.

[Fungus]

Israel is conducting an investigation into the deaths, and has rejected accusations made by UN Secretary General Kofi Annan that the targeting of the UN position was "apparently deliberate".

Phew. I was getting worried there that it would not be taken it seriously.

In reality, I don't the Israelis care. It does not affect them. All they care about is the polls. The IDF have killed UN troops and foreign civilians on many occasions before and covered up the circumstances. On numerous occasions they have stated that an investigation cleared the IDF troops of any wrongdoing. Most Israelis believe the government. On the few occasions that it has reached court, as a result of persistent outside pressure, the IDF soldiers have been found guilty of manslaughter/murder.

[lilelvis2000]

Israel is conducting an investigation into the deaths, and has rejected accusations made by UN Secretary General Kofi Annan that the targeting of the UN position was "apparently deliberate".

Accidents Can Happen as Elvis Costello used to sing.

Imagine though it was Hezbollah that accidentally hit the UN observation post.

What would people have to say ?

Just fancy that.

The UN post is well marked and has been in that location for decades. It seems the Israelis don't want any witnesses. I smell cluster bombing slaughter to begin once the UN decides to pull out.

As for Hezbollah - their weapons are much less accurate and have managed to avoid the UN post so far. One point for Hezb.

So far Hezb seems to be ahead in the propoganda "war". The Israelis seem to be shooting themselves in the foot. Why should the Israeli's care - they are all destined for heaven and we're not.