Why the poor don't move

[Platypus]

On that show there was a food parcel delivery. If your kids are literally starving and in need of charity food gifts, then I fail to see how they could be worse off if you, as their parent, got on your bike.

I have to wonder how real that is. If families can't afford to feed their kids, I'd suspect seriously poor spending priorities rather than lack of money for food. e.g. tobacco, sky subs, mobile phone contracts

[doodab]

All you are doing is shifting the blame. They are claiming a benefit lifestyle is because there are no jobs and no jobs and you are blaming successive governments for letting them down over the past 40 years. I say take some personal responsibility for yourself and your family. If there are no jobs and you can clearly see that there are jobs in other areas then surely it makes sense to go to the areas where there is work and find some. On that show there was a food parcel delivery. If your kids are literally starving and in need of charity food gifts, then I fail to see how they could be worse off if you, as their parent, got on your bike.

Not at all. I'm simply pointing out that however many times you say "take some personal responsibility for yourself and your family" and tell people to move to find work they won't actually do it. Clearly they have to take responsibility for that, but the fact remains that if the governments policy is to tell people to move, and people don't actually move, the policy doesn't work. It doesn't matter if you blame the people, the government, both, neither or the flapping of a butterflies wings in Hong Kong, at the end of the day the problem remains.

Would it be solved if people behaved differently? Yes, quite probably, but they aren't going to.Therefore government needs to do something a bit more proactive than hope for a sudden transformation in the nature of humanity.

Perhaps start by asking "why don't people move?" and addressing some of the reasons that they don't behave in the way we would like. Perhaps plan cities so that they are pleasant places to live instead of tulipholes, restructure the tax and benefit system so that the financial incentive to find work is more powerful, and actually start rewarding those who work hard rather than treating them like mugs and ******* them over at every turn.

[Mich the Tester]

I have to wonder how real that is. If families can't afford to feed their kids, I'd suspect seriously poor spending priorities rather than lack of money for food. e.g. tobacco, sky subs, mobile phone contracts

At the end of 2012, in NL, 70,000 people were depending on food hand outs by 'food banks' and it waa said to be growing by 5% to 10% per month. I don't know about their spending habits, and perhaps a few are literally looking for a free lunch, but I find it quite scary nonetheless. Something is going badly wrong. I'm also working for a clientco who's busy automating away lots of low level jobs that in the past would have employed 'people with less academic talents' and I can see structural unemployment growing quite a lot in the future.

[Old Hack]

At the end of 2012, in NL, 70,000 people were depending on food hand outs by 'food banks' and it waa said to be growing by 5% to 10% per month. I don't know about their spending habits, and perhaps a few are literally looking for a free lunch, but I find it quite scary nonetheless. Something is going badly wrong. I'm also working for a clientco who's busy automating away lots of low level jobs that in the past would have employed 'people with less academic talents' and I can see structural unemployment growing quite a lot in the future.

When I was travelling, we’d fire into all these free food places. Lots of hari Krishna places for a free lunch. Food banks, everything. Just to scam a free meal, free food. I remember there were 8 of us in a Kombi crossing Texas and into Nevada and every time we saw a Wendys, we’d stop, one would go in and pay or his $3.99 all you cna eat plate, and then we’d spend a couple of hours going to and from the food bar, eating tacos, and all sorts.

Some people need these places, and some still take the piss. Unfortunately. I’d venture there were a fair few students doing the very same too.

[original PM]

At the end of 2012, in NL, 70,000 people were depending on food hand outs by 'food banks' and it waa said to be growing by 5% to 10% per month. I don't know about their spending habits, and perhaps a few are literally looking for a free lunch, but I find it quite scary nonetheless. Something is going badly wrong. I'm also working for a clientco who's busy automating away lots of low level jobs that in the past would have employed 'people with less academic talents' and I can see structural unemployment growing quite a lot in the future.

it is a good point as we move towards more and more automation of low level tasks (and pretty much all of the projects I am on at the moment are looking to drive down costs by a reduction in head count caused by automation) there are going to be less and less jobs available for the less academically gifted.

I am not sure where it will end either but it depends on whether the relevant authorities are noting this now and chaning education to keep up.

Having said all of that - if you are too lazy to work hard at school then you are always going to be a lazy fe<ker as you get older and expect someone else to pay for it all.

Only solution is to remove handouts and let the doleite generations die off

[Mich the Tester]

Perhaps start by asking "why don't people move?" and addressing some of the reasons that they don't behave in the way we would like. Perhaps plan cities so that they are pleasant places to live instead of tulipholes, restructure the tax and benefit system so that the financial incentive to find work is more powerful, and actually start rewarding those who work hard rather than treating them like mugs and ******* them over at every turn.

Well, what could help a little is this; right now I can afford to stay away from home because I'm self employed and I can pay for a hotel room out of profit and thereby save on taxes. Employees or temps can't do that, and should I get caught out by the Dutch equivalent of IR35 then I'll be fooked too. As well, we still have MIRA but only for one house; if living costs were tax deductible for staying away from home in the week, it could help lot of people. But then, reason our politicians, they pay less tax and the government gets deeper into debt. Of course, if you did that you'd be able to tell people who are looking for work tat they have to extend their search to pretty much the whole of Europe instead of a 45 minute circle around their house. I don't know if it woud change their attitudes, but a few people would be helped. Also, what about diesel/petrol prices? Vehicle taxes? Price/general tulipeness of trains? All those things make mobility less attractive, and the fact is that the people losing their jobs right now are people who need mobility. Then of course we get to the disincentives of the tax system. As your income rises you pay a higher proportion in tax, in other words, the more you work the less you actually take home per hour. What happens with that money? The government employs mostly people with mid level or higher level qualifications as it's outsourced all the menial jobs; I could easily employ 1 FTE manual worker to maintain the house and garden and do the washing and so on, if I wasn't paying so much bleedin' tax to finance departments of pen pushers and busybodies and if the manual worker didn't cost the employer twice as much as he takes home.

[Mich the Tester]

Only solution is to remove handouts and let the doleite generations die off

But what's the history of those 'doleite generations'? They surely haven't always been 'doleites'? When the mines were open, many people worked hard and earned a living and were proud of it, likewise the shipbuilders, the steelworks and so on, and people thought they had a secure income. Now we see the building trade in NL being decimated, there are new 'doleites' who never thought they'd claim benefits and were always too proud to consider it, but once they start on that road they just seem to become more and more despondent; hardly surprising given that they're treated like tulipe by the system they spent many years paying into. People seem to go from hardworking, proud and dignified tradesmen/craftspeople to despondent and hopeless very very quickly. Somehow they have to be pulled out of that despondency before it ends up like Glyncorrwg or some other such hole that Zeity described.

[d000hg]

Hard to say for sure, but lots of people coming to food banks are the type who are deeply ashamed of having to do so, so I imagine they are genuinely up against it.

As for "just move"... how do you move hundreds of miles with your kids if you have no money? Hiring a van or buying train tickets is money you don't have, and where are you going to move TO without any money? Plus, you may have no money where you are but you do have family who can all support each other... if you move you have nobody.
And of course, where are you moving to which has a surplus of jobs? If there are less jobs than people, moving people around isn't going to help is it?

[doodab]

it is a good point as we move towards more and more automation of low level tasks (and pretty much all of the projects I am on at the moment are looking to drive down costs by a reduction in head count caused by automation) there are going to be less and less jobs available for the less academically gifted.

I am not sure where it will end either but it depends on whether the relevant authorities are noting this now and chaning education to keep up.

Having said all of that - if you are too lazy to work hard at school then you are always going to be a lazy fe<ker as you get older and expect someone else to pay for it all.

Only solution is to remove handouts and let the doleite generations die off

Society needs to work, which means it needs to work with the people it has at it's disposal. As there will always be lazy ****ers, we need to try and engineer things so that there is something for lazy ****ers to do.

After all, we might become more and more technologically advanced but it's hard to see that as unequivocal progress if 10% of people work 60 hours a week and have no life in order to subsidise the 90% the economy has no need for.

[Mich the Tester]

Society needs to work, which means it needs to work with the people it has at it's disposal. As there will always be lazy ****ers, we need to try and engineer things so that there is something for lazy ****ers to do.

We've already got that; it's called 'government'. We've got continental versions, national versions, regional versions and local versions, and we can't affort it all.