Really very serious charges for Menezes officers

[BobTheCrate]

I agree with you AtW with this incident.

Successive high ranking Police chiefs are fairly consistant that the final decisions on actually firing firearms rest with the officer/s in the fronline. I agree with such a policy provided those officers have been trained to make such decisions with controlled minds under extreme conditions. Which is part and parcel of proper training.

It is those who ordered ill-trained officers into such a situation that are the ones to put the spotlight on. What riles me is the assumption (gleefully re-enforced by Ian Bliar's propoganda) that those who actually executed Menezes (I'm talking the shooter/s not the restrainers) were anything like 'highly trained'. In that regard those officers were not necessarily at fault that their training was so woefully inadequate.

Now it seems this policy may have been deliberately overridden in this incident in which case the Police command were guilty of 'panicking' by not allowing front-line officers to use their own initiative. i.e "We don't care what you think or achieve, kill him anyway" type of orders.

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If all the officers in that incident were highly trained, were they acting on direct orders, "not to consider their own initiative but to kill the suspect no matter what" ?

Such orders would have been IMO criminally negligent.

Either way, I accept it unlikely those who executed Menezes are the ones to blame. Either it is those complicit in ordering ill-trained officers into that situation, or those who ordered highly trained officers in, but told them not to use their initiative & training but to kill the suspect anyway.

[DimPrawn]

I've heard the reason they killed him was they suspected he'd also been lying on his tax return.

Makes you think doesn't it.

[TheMonkey]

I don't know what the bother is. I mean in the US, they shoot people all the time. The bugger was outside his work visa allegedly.

[BobTheCrate]

You are right, this is a debacle...what police force around the world would charge their officers with murder when they were trying to save the lives of their fellow citizens?

Absolute disgrace but isnt hindsight a wonderful thing!

Well apparently the Police are not being charged by the CPS - they're being charged by the Health & Safety Executive. That only adds to the debacle.

We all know and understand the 'split second decision' that has to be employed sometimes and the inadequacies of judging that in hindsight.

Menezes had been physically restrained though. This was never contested by the Police (eventually) and confirmed by witnesses. His hands, arms and legs were all pinned down.

Even Israeli special forces do not consider a suicide terrorist bomber armed with some kind of half assed 'Roger Moore raising of one eyebrow' as being a likely trigger.

This young man was executed, make no mistake. Either by ill-trained Police officers firing their weapons, or sufficiently trained officers acting under specific orders to ignore much of their training & initiative but to kill the suspect no matter what.

If the Police acted in a proper or even understandable manner (at whatever level) why did they seek to deceive people over what actually happened ?

Do you think it beneficial to encourage the Police to deceive us over such matters ?

[Mailman]

Even Israeli special forces do not consider a suicide terrorist bomber armed with some kind of half assed 'Roger Moore raising of one eyebrow' as being a likely trigger.

That all depends on the situation Bob. If the terrorist is caught in the open then they will attempt to get him to disarm themselves. Failing that they have killed terrorists in the past that were about to detonate themselves near bus stops.

This young man was executed, make no mistake.

What an absolute crock of sh1t this statement is. Farken hell, this is right up there with there were no WMD's!

If the Police acted in a proper or even understandable manner (at whatever level) why did they seek to deceive people over what actually happened ?

You are right about being deceived BUT unfortunately for you the deception wasnt carried out by the police. Heck, even the eye witness accounts said the guy jumped the barriers, was wearing a thick jacket on a warm day and ran towards the train etc.

I know, you are going to harp on about the police doing nothing to stop this information being siezed upon by the tabloids BUT the Police did the right thing in keeping their mouths shut as an investigation was going on in to the events that led up to the shooting.

In fact, no one has been deceived by the police BUT you have been deceived by the media.

Now, I wonder how much the Menezes were paid out by the Government? Im betting its a hell of a lot more than the 57 families received after the bombings last year (I bet its even more than all the money paid out to those families!). Now THATS the real tragedy!

Mailman

[The Lone Gunman]

Could somebody give me directions to planet mailman, it must be a fascinating place to live.

The original police report said Menezes jumped the barriers and was wearing a puffa jacket and was running and that the police identified themselves and he turned and ran.

The press published eye witness accounts that he was walking, only rushing when he realised his train was leaving. He walked through the barriers and he was wearing a denim jacket.
He was pinned down by a number of officers immobilising his arms and legs and was then shot a number of times at least one officer put his gun in hte guys mouth.

The press version has since been accepted as the truth by the police.

Once they had him pinned they had no need to shoot him. They could probably also see that the only place he could be concealing a bomb would have been up his own arse much like the location of Postman Prats head!

[swamp]

You are right about being deceived BUT unfortunately for you the deception wasnt carried out by the police. Heck, even the eye witness accounts said the guy jumped the barriers, was wearing a thick jacket on a warm day and ran towards the train etc.

For what it's worth Menezes didn't jump the ticket barrier and he wasn't wearing a thick coat:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main...7/nmenez17.xml

[BobTheCrate]

Heck, even the eye witness accounts said the guy jumped the barriers, was wearing a thick jacket on a warm day and ran towards the train etc.

Err ... some of the witnesses initially mistook the Police officers running in pursuit as the suspect. Muppet.

LG describes the rest perfectly.

In fact, no one has been deceived by the police BUT you have been deceived by the media.

No where to my knowledge have the media ever attempted to test or challenge Police claims regarding the quality of firearms officers deployed.

So the Media didn't even attempt a deception on anyone in that regard. Muppet.

[BobTheCrate]

They could probably also see that the only place he could be concealing a bomb would have been up his own arse much like the location of Postman Prats head!

My sides are still hurting LG - stop it.

I've still got this vision now of mailman confronted by an array of pistols with his head in his arse desperately trying to raise one of his eyebrows.

[bobsmithldn]

What boring cr*p this is - change the subject.

Let's talk 'bout 'nani ...