The EU question question

[tractor]

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The referendum is useless because it doesn't answer the other question: What happens practically after we leave the EU?

The Little England simpletons think that leaving the EU means shutting the borders and kicking the bloody foreigners out, but who has the balls to tell them it's more complicated than that?

Perhaps I am one of those simpletons but that's not what I believe at all. I believe that if the rules had not been so severely abused by political parties for years to manipulate the country, we wouldn't be in any where near the situation we are in at the moment. Blair's lot have already admitted why they abused the rules. The incompetence of the civil service over immigration is another reason, the inability of the current lot to either admit they have lost the plot or to do anything about it is another. What we need is a workable set of rules and an administration and executive with the balls to stick by them!!!

My reason for wanting out of Europe is because a. it is NOT what we signed up for b. it is entirely corrupt and unnaccountable and c. it encourages whole countries to destroy themselves by giving them huge debt that everyone knows that cannot service (which they waste on 4 years of gorging on great wages whilst they build things that no one wants nor will ever use (aka whole airports in the middle of nowhere).


I think the average person knows that it is more complicated than that, but faced with the lies and bluster from all camps, no one know what to believe and what we have at the moment is too entrenched for the same average person to understand it for themselves. I guess if I am honest, I am in the same boat.

Perhaps you would like to give us a few bullet points detailing those complications and make it easy on the rest of us simpletons?

[VectraMan]

My reason for wanting out of Europe is because a. it is NOT what we signed up for b. it is entirely corrupt and unnaccountable and c. it encourages whole countries to destroy themselves by giving them huge debt that everyone knows that cannot service (which they waste on 4 years of gorging on great wages whilst they build things that no one wants nor will ever use (aka whole airports in the middle of nowhere).

Entirely corrupt? So this huge organisation manages to function with everybody taking bribes all the time and the public not noticing? I suggest you present your evidence to someone. Not accountable - what are MEPs and European elections all about then?

How exactly did the EU encourage countries to destroy themselves with debt? Part of the Maastricht treaty (I think it was that one) put limits on the amount of public debt and deficit any member was allowed to run (of course everybody broke that rule after the financial crisis, but the intent was certain not what you say).

So as a simpleton, what is the alternative you actually want? Pretend for a minute you have to think of a practical solution rather than just moan about things you clearly haven't bothered to understand, what would make you happy?

[BlasterBates]

Well there are key reasons we want to be careful about leaving the EU. Britain is a net exporter of cars to the EU, thanks mainly to Japanese investment, this is a key industry particularly for the North of England, also German manufacturers have invested in the UK and we make bits of their cars, this also applies to machinery manufacturers etc. We´re a key part of the Air Bus consortium. But those are just some examples, there are many others, also high tech the UK is usually a key location in EU integrated operations. Also finance, virtually all the EU finance trading is done in London.

Now Switzerland and Norway are not locations for integrated EU operations. Norway lives exclusively from it´s oil, Switzerland lives almost exclusively from Swiss banks and Swiss home grown industry, neither of these countries has any EU integrated operations.

In other words when we leave the EU we can´t be like Norway and Switzerland, the open question is what will happen? This question is unanswered.

i.e. Will the Japs still manufacture in Britain?
Will Eurobond trading continue in London?
Will the Airbus consortium continue to invest in Britain or will it diminish?

Of course over time the UK could develop like Switzerland or Norway but what´s the strategy? What can Britain manufacture on it´s own witout being dependent on EU investment (whether from the EU or the overseas companies wanting to be in the EU).

[VectraMan]

In other words when we leave the EU we can´t be like Norway and Switzerland, the open question is what will happen? This question is unanswered.

As I understand it, as members of the EFTA both Norway and Switzerland allow the same freedoms of movement as other EU members, and still contribute to the EU budget. So if it's a case of leaving the EU and being part of the EFTA, those thinking it'll be an end to immigration and us giving Brussels money will be in for a shock when nothing changes.

I suppose the anti EU'ists will tell us we can negotiate an agreement to keep free trade, but with closed borders and without other Brussels interference, but why should Brussels give into our demands? And even if they do, will it be enough for the likes of Toyota? Moving their car plant to Romania is going to look increasingly attractive if there's suddenly an increase in restrictions in the UK.

[tractor]

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Entirely corrupt? So this huge organisation manages to function with everybody taking bribes all the time and the public not noticing? I suggest you present your evidence to someone. Not accountable - what are MEPs and European elections all about then? When was the last time the accounts were signed off by the auditors? You trust them when their own accountants do not????

How exactly did the EU encourage countries to destroy themselves with debt? Part of the Maastricht treaty (I think it was that one) put limits on the amount of public debt and deficit any member was allowed to run that didn't stop Greece lying to get in and the EU didn't do much checking of the application form (of course everybody broke that rule after the financial crisis, but the intent was certain not what you say). Yes let's blame the financial crisis - again. It is more likely this that contributed to the financial crisis.

So as a simpleton, what is the alternative you actually want? Pretend for a minute you have to think of a practical solution rather than just moan about things you clearly haven't bothered to understand, what would make you happy? Crazy bananas that are allowed to bend any way they want, pounds, shillings and pence but more of it in my pocket than corrupt gravy train riders

The bolded text above is mine not his...

But seriously, pro eu and anti eu campaigners alike might find they have more success in getting their argument across by explaining rather than the usual opening gambit of you disagree with me, therefore you are a simpleton. Until that changes, all I am hearing is a load of crazy cat ladies

[xoggoth]

Entirely corrupt? So this huge organisation manages to function with everybody taking bribes all the time and the public not noticing?

If corruption was purely about illegal bribes you could say Saddam Hussein and other dictators were upright, honest man. They mostly followed the laws that they made to the letter.

Corruption has many levels. IMO the empire builders who create monstrous, expensive and ill-functioning organisations that others pay for, organisations that always award them huge salaries and perks, are corrupt. The fact that it may be legal according to laws they and others like them are framing, is a mere technicality.

Whether driven by self interest or idealism, it makes no difference, they are corrupt.

[VectraMan]

Corruption has many levels. IMO the empire builders who create monstrous, expensive and ill-functioning organisations that others pay for, organisations that always award them huge salaries and perks, are corrupt. The fact that it may be legal according to laws they and others like them are framing, is a mere technicality.

And you've just described every government and every government organisation. Nobody would deny that the EU is a huge out of control and wasteful bureaucracy, but so is the NHS and should we scrap the concept of the NHS just because it could be run better? Or should we try to improve it?

Don't throw the baby out with the bath water.

[tractor]

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If corruption was purely about illegal bribes you could say Saddam Hussein and other dictators were upright, honest man. They mostly followed the laws that they made to the letter.

Corruption has many levels. IMO the empire builders who create monstrous, expensive and ill-functioning organisations that others pay for, organisations that always award them huge salaries and perks, are corrupt. The fact that it may be legal according to laws they and others like them are framing, is a mere technicality.

Whether driven by self interest or idealism, it makes no difference, they are corrupt.

You said what I couldn't be arsed to! But then, even Vman knows this but would want you to provide the smoking gun and the bullet to each and every general accusation.

The EU is a corrupt organisation. That does not mean all of its employees or members are. The EU is not accountable even though individual members are but when you can only replace them with other members that are likely to become as corrupt as their predecessors, what is the point of any of it?

[tractor]

And you've just described every government and every government organisation. Nobody would deny that the EU is a huge out of control and wasteful bureaucracy, but so is the NHS and should we scrap the concept of the NHS just because it could be run better? Or should we try to improve it?

Don't throw the baby out with the bath water.

We own the NHS, we don't own the EU.

Every organisation you describe should be governed by a 'Board of Common Sense' then, if it doesn't make sense to give priority to transgender or breast enhancement ops over palliative care or hips for pensionsers, then they should not be sanctioned.

Same with the EU, if it doesn't make sense to give the Spaniards bazillions of euros to build an airport in the middle of nowhere, then don't give them it! If it doesn't make sense to pay farmers to NOT farm, then don't pay them!

But while people are calling others simpletons because they fundamentally disagree with these kind of lunacies, you will never get anything changed and people will want to throw the baby out with the bathwater a la UKIP.

So how do you think we clean up the EU? How do you think we make it work for all its members?