Thatcher wins Scottish independence!

[Ignis Fatuus]

As I Scot I thank Margaret Thatcher. Were it not for her supremely divisive politics, the Scottish parliament would not have been seen so quickly and so emphatically as necessary.

When we vote in the freedom referendum next year, our minds will be all the more focused by the awful reflection that so many of our English neighbours actually thought that Thatcher's government was remotely acceptable. Such a society, if I may permit myself the term, is so alien to our own civilisation, that those who espouse it may be our good neighbours but can never share our vision and our future. Their destiny is not our destiny, their civilisation if such there be is not ours. Our country is not theirs.

I will not raise a glass to Thatcher's departure (though I notice with no surprise that a good few in George Square have done so), mainly because it is thirty years too late. But when we finally get our freedom, I will drink a toast to Margaret Thatcher, without whose intransigence it would have been a longer road. To the woman so divisive that she bears a personal responsibility for breaking up the United Kingsom, be thankit!

[DodgyAgent]

As I Scot I thank Margaret Thatcher. Were it not for her supremely divisive politics, the Scottish parliament would not have been seen so quickly and so emphatically as necessary.

When we vote in the freedom referendum next year, our minds will be all the more focused by the awful reflection that so many of our English neighbours actually thought that Thatcher's government was remotely acceptable. Such a society, if I may permit myself the term, is so alien to our own civilisation, that those who espouse it may be our good neighbours but can never share our vision and our future. Their destiny is not our destiny, their civilisation if such there be is not ours. Our country is not theirs.

I will not raise a glass to Thatcher's departure (though I notice with no surprise that a good few in George Square have done so), mainly because it is thirty years too late. But when we finally get our freedom, I will drink a toast to Margaret Thatcher, without whose intransigence it would have been a longer road. To the woman so divisive that she bears a personal responsibility for breaking up the United Kingsom, be thankit!

Scotland's public sector dependence culture will unravel as soon as it gets its independence. I find it sickening that an IT contractor like you has the brass neck to rubbish the society that she created that so enriched people like you

[GB9]

If Thatcher is a cause for the Scots voting for independence then she will have been truly great. At the moment I have her rated as just below great, as whilst she smashed most of the unions, she didn't finish them off. That was a mistake, leaving millions of people in the continued slavery of the socialists, highlighted recently by the revelation that one of the mining unions has but 4 members, 3 of which run the union, and one of which gets a salary of over £90k. That's socialism for you and she should have put it to sleep once and for all.

[Ignis Fatuus]

Scotland's public sector dependence culture will unravel as soon as it gets its independence. I find it sickening that an IT contractor like you has the brass neck to rubbish the society that she created that so enriched people like you

Not me my dodgy mate. I started my IT contracting career in January 1978. I left the UK on 7th May 1979, so I lived 3 days under the Thatcher regime. I don't owe Thatcher anything.

[Ignis Fatuus]

If Thatcher is a cause for the Scots voting for independence then she will have been truly great. At the moment I have her rated as just below great, as whilst she smashed most of the unions, she didn't finish them off. That was a mistake, leaving millions of people in the continued slavery of the socialists, highlighted recently by the revelation that one of the mining unions has but 4 members, 3 of which run the union, and one of which gets a salary of over £90k. That's socialism for you and she should have put it to sleep once and for all.

That's not socialism, that's farce. It's ridiculous but it's not politics.

BTW which union was that, give us a link for the "revelation" please, and where's the money coming from? On second thoughts don't bother, I don't care. It's a red herring, favourite device of empty rhetoricians.

If as it seems you agree with me on the incompatibility of our civilised social democratic vision and your thatcherite right-wing jungle of capitalist excess, then for god's sake don't just sit there, help us campaign for both our freedoms from each other. If there's anything I despise more than cowardly Scots who buy the FUD that Scotland is a small country that couldn't survive "on its own" (as if On Its Own were worse than As An Exploited Territory), it's two-faced Englishmen who say with one of the forks of their tongue that Scotland need their "help", and with the other, that they will not permit Scotland to try freedom.

I hope that doesn't include you, or I might have to get discourteous.

[socialworker]

If Thatcher is a cause for the Scots voting for independence then she will have been truly great. At the moment I have her rated as just below great, as whilst she smashed most of the unions, she didn't finish them off. That was a mistake, leaving millions of people in the continued slavery of the socialists, highlighted recently by the revelation that one of the mining unions has but 4 members, 3 of which run the union, and one of which gets a salary of over £90k. That's socialism for you and she should have put it to sleep once and for all.

That's not socialism that is corruption. You can have corruption anywhere people have unchallenged power.
Unions have been a spent force in this country ever since the miners strike, but in Germany where they are quite strong and active, the economy and manufacturing industry are stronger. The difference between here and Germany is a less split society. Thatcher destroyed the post war consensus and put us on the road to an increasingly polarised society where we are all at each others' throats. I dont actually think she meant it to go as far as it has. I used to hate her with a vengeance, but at least she had principles unlike most politicians now.

[Ignis Fatuus]

Well I do hate spineless politicians quite a lot, and she wasn't that! But she was harmful, and as far as I can see, her successes came not so much from the intransigent application of her political philosophy as from a bit of coincidence and a lot of tricks. I haven't prepared this and am not ready for a full-blown debate, but I'll try a few points:

North Sea oil came on stream just in time to save her bacon. It is difficult to appreciate just how much of a bonanza that was; or how poor we had become (under Labour or Tory) without it; or just how fast and foolishly we spent it. *

Thatcher "privatised" the heart out of the economy. That wasn't "rolling back the frontiers of the state", that was the pawnbroker. The investments of generations, paid by decades of taxation, were sold off to fill up the current account.

She even sold off stuff that wasn't actually in public hands, having spotted that there was no power to prevent her (Trustee Savings Banks - they were not public property, but she put them up for sale anyway).

She sold off council houses but did it for a number of devious reasons (income to treasury, buy votes, divest government of responsibility). I would have been 100% in favour if the government had then built more. Not to do so led to many of today's housing evils (excessive buy-to-let, lack of social housing).

It wasn't that Thatcherism worked. Or rather, it wasn't that her political philosophy worked; it was that Thatcherism as plain and simple asset-stripping gave a short-term current account surplus. Slater Walker knew this a decade before Thatcher, but they only applied it to companies - she did it to the country.


* Edit: that's important, because I maintain that most (not all) of Thatcher's economic success came from one-offs: not reversing Britain's decline but merely disguising it, or at best postponing it. That is, we are still there. Sadly, the present government seems not to see this and thinks that a bit more Thatcherism will make us better. It won't: the bit that worked, the oil and the sell-offs, has been done, and can't be done again.

[tractor]

That's not socialism that is corruption. You can have corruption anywhere people have unchallenged power.
Unions have been a spent force in this country ever since the miners strike, but in Germany where they are quite strong and active, the economy and manufacturing industry are stronger. The difference between here and Germany is a less split society. Thatcher destroyed the post war consensus and put us on the road to an increasingly polarised society where we are all at each others' throats. I dont actually think she meant it to go as far as it has. I used to hate her with a vengeance, but at least she had principles unlike most politicians now.

Selective memories :P

I don't think Thatcher started it; from Wiki (which I had to refer as the memory starts to fade but that's another story).....

"The strikes were a result of the Labour government's attempt to control inflation by a forced departure from their social contract with the unions by imposing rules on the public sector that pay rises be kept below 5%, to control inflation in itself and as an example to the private sector. However, some employees' unions conducted their negotiations within mutually agreed limits above this limit with employers.[1] While the strikes were largely over by February 1979, the government's inability to contain the strikes earlier helped lead to Margaret Thatcher's Conservative victory in the 1979 general election and legislation to restrict unions."

Indeed I do remember it correctly then, and reading this thread, I find it similar to the distasteful comments by Adams and Galloway et al. - it's clear they learn nothing from the past, she won most of her battles because her enemies had no respect for her, how little they learned from her. Yes she made some big mistakes. Yes she was divisive but the unions started the war, so did Galtieri etc etc.

IMO Scotland should have been out of the Union at the moment of devolution. You cannot be in when it suits and out otherwise. i.e in for free prescriptions and out for gas and oil profits.

[Ignis Fatuus]

Forgive me, Dodgy, I was too glib. Regardless of my own personal circumstance, I disagree with your idea that Thatcher created the society that so enriched IT contractors. That is simply imagination. she may have deregulated some aspects of the economy as it impinged upon business, but I can not see that this made much difference to IT contracting. she certainly did not bring about some kind of explosion in micro-freelancing business that made IT contractors rich. IT contactors are freelance professionals (or temps in many cases), almost never businesses like BP or even Dodgy Agency Ltd. No shame in that. But no big boost from Thatcher either.

[Ignis Fatuus]

IMO Scotland should have been out of the Union at the moment of devolution. You cannot be in when it suits and out otherwise. i.e in for free prescriptions and out for gas and oil profits.

I agree about being out, but I must point out the fallacy in your examples.

Firstly, Scotland is not "in for free prescriptions". It is not "getting" free prescriptions from the UK: it is choosing to spend some of its money on that, where the rest of the UK chooses not to spend some of its money on that. That is devolution, not central subsidy.

Secondly, Scotland is unfortunately not "out for gas and oil profits", it is emphatically "in" - the gas and oil is London's as things stand.

So sorry, you have it quite posterior about mammary gland.