Lib Dems prove once again they are not fit to govern

[BrilloPad]

Good post Mich.

It'll be fun when the illusion of wealth is broken. Quite quickly I believe. Fun fun fun.

I agree the illusion of wealth will be broken. But it will not be quick. Governments will try to inflate their way out - and I believe that process could paper over the cracks for a long long time.

But your guess is as good as mine.

[Scoobos]

Rob, do you even know what "Free market" capitalism is?

You agree that everything should be sold with no state intervention ?

So you condone the sale of heroin , crack, uncensored porn and film, knock off goods and forgeries, etc etc?

Free market is NOT what I want... It's also not even possible in my view (perhaps Thailand is the closest I've personally seen, but its drug laws beat it.).

The moment that a government buys 1 thing from a free market, its no longer free is it??

[Scoobos]

and good post Mich, I can't rep... and can't be repped either apparantly... ho hum (rep whore!!!!)

[Mich the Tester]

I'm going to tell you a true story. This is all fact, no exaggeration; I wish I was bulltulipting and I fear some of you might recognise what I'm about to describe. I live in a small village near to a small town in the Netherlands. I never shop in the village because the shops have all gone.

There used to be a general store, a bank, a post office and a bicycle shop. Of course, the bank first decided about 5 years ago to close the office 'to save costs' and replace it with a cash machine, which was closed 6 months later 'to save costs', so the general store struggled, but the enterprising chap first there got himself a PIN payment machine. Unfortunately, PIN payments became very expensive when the electronic clearing house (there's only one of those) insisted all transactions must be carried out on broadband connections; there wasn't broadband here at the time, so the shopkeeper would have to invest huge amounts of money he didn't have, so instead he closed the shop. The post office was closed to 'save costs'. Now the bicycle shop's an interesting case; that made a modest profit and employed a few locals, due to a good regional reputation and the owner lived above the shop that he rented from some old bloke. But, after the old bloke died the building was bought by a speculator who decided he could make more money by taking advantage of the fact you're allowed to live above the shop and sold it as residential property, forcing the bike shop owner out by raising his rent astronomically. So now we have no shops and we have to go to a smalll town nearby.

Over to the small town; it used to be quite pleasant and I was happy to shop there. There was a very good restaurant, an excellent butcher selling some of the the finest meat available, a greengrocer selling local veg and a cornucopia of small businesses selling all sorts. But then the very same speculator and two others (an oligopoly) started raising the rents to levels that would make it impossible for small businesses to make a profit. We now have no restaurant, no butcher (and no local outlet for the outstanding local meat), no greengrocer and half the shop premises are boarded up.

There are a few larger towns nearby, one of them is Deventer. Deventer is a beautiful old Hanseatic town, resembling in many ways the old towns of Antwerp, Copenhagen and Riga. It has a rich cultural history. Charles Dickens apparently lived there for a while, and in the past it's been home to many artists and writers; the sort of place where people sit out in a town square relaxing with friends and a coffee or a glass of wine. But go looking for shops that you won't find on every other shopping street in NL and you won't find them. All the premises have ended up in the hands of a few large property speculators who only do business with big chains (safe, predictable); about a quarter of the premises are left empty and there's no space for the local artists and designers to display their wares in town, however rich the artistic tradition of the place.

Now then, where were the local politicians when the properties were bought up by monopolists and oligopolists? They were sitting in their huge comfortable offices sending their PR people to tell the press 'it's not our job to interfere in the market', and all the while working out what else they could sell to finance their own lives of luxury.

And now, due to the wonders of following the mantra of not letting the government interfere in the market, we have less choice than ever, higher unemployment, very few local job opportunities beyond the McBurgerflippers, less and less opportunities for local businesses and worst of all, all the money that was raised by selling our culture and our society down the river has been pissed away on what? I don't know where the bloody money has gone. I don't even care where it's gone, but I'm bloody angry and I want our culture and our future back.

[moggy]

I'm going to tell you a true story. This is all fact, no exaggeration; I wish I was bulltulipting and I fear some of you might recognise what I'm about to describe. I live in a small village near to a small town in the Netherlands. I never shop in the village because the shops have all gone.

There used to be a general store, a bank, a post office and a bicycle shop. Of course, the bank first decided about 5 years ago to close the office 'to save costs' and replace it with a cash machine, which was closed 6 months later 'to save costs', so the general store struggled, but the enterprising chap first there got himself a PIN payment machine. Unfortunately, PIN payments became very expensive when the electronic clearing house (there's only one of those) insisted all transactions must be carried out on broadband connections; there wasn't broadband here at the time, so the shopkeeper would have to invest huge amounts of money he didn't have, so instead he closed the shop. The post office was closed to 'save costs'. Now the bicycle shop's an interesting case; that made a modest profit and employed a few locals, due to a good regional reputation and the owner lived above the shop that he rented from some old bloke. But, after the old bloke died the building was bought by a speculator who decided he could make more money by taking advantage of the fact you're allowed to live above the shop and sold it as residential property, forcing the bike shop owner out by raising his rent astronomically. So now we have no shops and we have to go to a smalll town nearby.

Over to the small town; it used to be quite pleasant and I was happy to shop there. There was a very good restaurant, an excellent butcher selling some of the the finest meat available, a greengrocer selling local veg and a cornucopia of small businesses selling all sorts. But then the very same speculator and two others (an oligopoly) started raising the rents to levels that would make it impossible for small businesses to make a profit. We now have no restaurant, no butcher (and no local outlet for the outstanding local meat), no greengrocer and half the shop premises are boarded up.

There are a few larger towns nearby, one of them is Deventer. Deventer is a beautiful old Hanseatic town, resembling in many ways the old towns of Antwerp, Copenhagen and Riga. It has a rich cultural history. Charles Dickens apparently lived there for a while, and in the past it's been home to many artists and writers; the sort of place where people sit out in a town square relaxing with friends and a coffee or a glass of wine. But go looking for shops that you won't find on every other shopping street in NL and you won't find them. All the premises have ended up in the hands of a few large property speculators who only do business with big chains (safe, predictable); about a quarter of the premises are left empty and there's no space for the local artists and designers to display their wares in town, however rich the artistic tradition of the place.

Now then, where were the local politicians when the properties were bought up by monopolists and oligopolists? They were sitting in their huge comfortable offices sending their PR people to tell the press 'it's not our job to interfere in the market', and all the while working out what else they could sell to finance their own lives of luxury.

And now, due to the wonders of following the mantra of not letting the government interfere in the market, we have less choice than ever, higher unemployment, very few local job opportunities beyond the McBurgerflippers, less and less opportunities for local businesses and worst of all, all the money that was raised by selling our culture and our society down the river has been pissed away on what? I don't know where the bloody money has gone. I don't even care where it's gone, but I'm bloody angry and I want our culture and our future back.

Well said.

[Lockhouse]

Well said.

WS 2

[Robinho]

Rob, do you even know what "Free market" capitalism is?

You agree that everything should be sold with no state intervention ?

So you condone the sale of heroin , crack, uncensored porn and film, knock off goods and forgeries, etc etc?

Free market is NOT what I want... It's also not even possible in my view (perhaps Thailand is the closest I've personally seen, but its drug laws beat it.).

The moment that a government buys 1 thing from a free market, its no longer free is it??

Strawman argument at least in the context i use it, free-market is being used as a relative term.

I was referring to the notion that the economy needs to be periodically corrected by the state. The point is that if the money system was sound this would not be necessary.

As an aside i am generally not opposed to drug legalisation.

[Mich the Tester]

Strawman argument at least in the context i use it, free-market is being used as a relative term.

I was referring to the notion that the economy needs to be periodically corrected by the state. The point is that if the money system was sound this would not be necessary.

As an aside i am generally not opposed to drug legalisation.

How would a 'sound money system' (I guess you mean ending fractional reserve banking) prevent companies becoming monopolies or oligopolies behaviour?

How would a 'sound money system' prevent market manipulation through price agreements, agreements to restrict supply etc?

[Robinho]

I'm going to tell you a true story. This is all fact, no exaggeration; I wish I was bulltulipting and I fear some of you might recognise what I'm about to describe. I live in a small village near to a small town in the Netherlands. I never shop in the village because the shops have all gone.

There used to be a general store, a bank, a post office and a bicycle shop. Of course, the bank first decided about 5 years ago to close the office 'to save costs' and replace it with a cash machine, which was closed 6 months later 'to save costs', so the general store struggled, but the enterprising chap first there got himself a PIN payment machine. Unfortunately, PIN payments became very expensive when the electronic clearing house (there's only one of those) insisted all transactions must be carried out on broadband connections; there wasn't broadband here at the time, so the shopkeeper would have to invest huge amounts of money he didn't have, so instead he closed the shop. The post office was closed to 'save costs'. Now the bicycle shop's an interesting case; that made a modest profit and employed a few locals, due to a good regional reputation and the owner lived above the shop that he rented from some old bloke. But, after the old bloke died the building was bought by a speculator who decided he could make more money by taking advantage of the fact you're allowed to live above the shop and sold it as residential property, forcing the bike shop owner out by raising his rent astronomically. So now we have no shops and we have to go to a smalll town nearby.

Over to the small town; it used to be quite pleasant and I was happy to shop there. There was a very good restaurant, an excellent butcher selling some of the the finest meat available, a greengrocer selling local veg and a cornucopia of small businesses selling all sorts. But then the very same speculator and two others (an oligopoly) started raising the rents to levels that would make it impossible for small businesses to make a profit. We now have no restaurant, no butcher (and no local outlet for the outstanding local meat), no greengrocer and half the shop premises are boarded up.

There are a few larger towns nearby, one of them is Deventer. Deventer is a beautiful old Hanseatic town, resembling in many ways the old towns of Antwerp, Copenhagen and Riga. It has a rich cultural history. Charles Dickens apparently lived there for a while, and in the past it's been home to many artists and writers; the sort of place where people sit out in a town square relaxing with friends and a coffee or a glass of wine. But go looking for shops that you won't find on every other shopping street in NL and you won't find them. All the premises have ended up in the hands of a few large property speculators who only do business with big chains (safe, predictable); about a quarter of the premises are left empty and there's no space for the local artists and designers to display their wares in town, however rich the artistic tradition of the place.

Now then, where were the local politicians when the properties were bought up by monopolists and oligopolists? They were sitting in their huge comfortable offices sending their PR people to tell the press 'it's not our job to interfere in the market', and all the while working out what else they could sell to finance their own lives of luxury.

And now, due to the wonders of following the mantra of not letting the government interfere in the market, we have less choice than ever, higher unemployment, very few local job opportunities beyond the McBurgerflippers, less and less opportunities for local businesses and worst of all, all the money that was raised by selling our culture and our society down the river has been pissed away on what? I don't know where the bloody money has gone. I don't even care where it's gone, but I'm bloody angry and I want our culture and our future back.

If he could make more money turning shops into residential building then there is effectively no economic case for a shop(s) in these towns. As such there can be no complaint that there are no shops. People are essentially saying, "i want a shop in my town, but i'm not going to use it enough or pay high enough prices to keep it in business".

[Robinho]

How would a 'sound money system' (I guess you mean ending fractional reserve banking) prevent companies becoming monopolies or oligopolies behaviour?

How would a 'sound money system' prevent market manipulation through price agreements, agreements to restrict supply etc?

Competition can prevent that.