Lib Dems prove once again they are not fit to govern

[moggy]

Quite true and have seen it in many British villages and towns but not so in Germany strangely enough.

Although not really connected, we have a shopping centre in the middle of town, apparently one of the very first in Germany and was looking a bit worn but I found it quite reasonable. Anyway along came a British company and bought it, they tarted it up, nothing special, just some cladding outside and new lights really but whacked up the rents and drove many of the well established tenants out (there used to be a great food area with a very good butchers and greengrocers) and others, mainly tacky clothing stores came and went. The British company realised they weren't making any money and bailed out. A German company has come in and strangely enough they now added two new floors with a whole new range of shops queueing to get in (and a large shopping centre opened just out of town, with free parking, but people seem to flock into the town center instead...)

One of the things with Britain and the out of town supermarkets is that continental Europe has had them for decades and they never impacted on the town shops so I'm at a loss as to how, or why, they affected high streets in the UK...

indeed, was just thinking much the same. Walk down many streets in Germany and there are still plenty of independent coffee shops and such like.

[doodab]

Yes they are going to build a huge frekking Tesco's in the middle of nowhere.

That's exactly what they do. Have you really not noticed or are you one of those Londoners who thinks crossing a postcode boundary is a long journey?

[sasguru]

That's exactly what they do. Have you really not noticed or are you one of those Londoners who thinks crossing a postcode boundary is a long journey?

I think Robby has not been to the US or Germany - otherwise he would know which society provides better for its citizens, is more sound fiscally now and in the long term, has lower crime, has a better quality of life for the vast majority of its citizens. It's not the more free market one.

[TheBigD]

indeed, was just thinking much the same. Walk down many streets in Germany and there are still plenty of independent coffee shops and such like.

Walk down many streets in London (Camden town being a prime example)/Manchester/Birmingham, and you'll find lots of independent coffee shops, Cafe's and such like.

I'd be interested to know what happens to the independent retailers in the smaller German cities/towns when a large Supermarket opens up on the outskirts.

[Robinho]

If there aren't any free markets then you have little evidence on which to base claims that free markets are the best option.

So it's not possible to extrapolate from existing and historical examples off free and less free markets, observe the glaring trend between freedom and prosperity and draw suitable conclusions?

As for 'Hong Kong and Singpore are generally considered the freest economies - interestingly they are also the wealthiest nations in their region', well, Norway, Australia and Canada are generally considered to be pretty healthy economies and very pleasant places to live, even though their economies are relatively regulated.

All 3 have great mineral wealth - particularly Norway. That's why they're doing well.

Cuba's economy is heavily regulated and it's a basket case. Somaliland has no real regulation because it basically doesn't have a government; it's a bloody mess and nobody wants to live there, witnessed by the number of refugees leaving the place. Also, I've put the 'in their region' in bold text; it's quite possible that what works in Singapore and Hong Kong (and it's debateable how well it works given other variables that determine quality of life) doesn't work in some other region.

I'm not read up on Somaliland. It is worth noting that all of that part of Africa is very poor, it would be interesting seeing some statistics between it and other countries in the area.

America; yes, relatively 'free' in economic terms, and pretty nearly bust.

They are no more bust than Canada, yet you have Canada is healthy and you are arguing America is buggered, even though Americas have quite a bit more purchasing power than Canadians.

What you are doing is extrapolating all sorts of conclusions from economic theories (Austrian school) which are internally consistent and useful for understanding some of the world's disparities in financial wealth, but you seem to ignore empirical evidence that suggests that those theories don't explain everything and don't seem to provide the answers everywhere. That's not science; that's religion.

Please highlight the internal inconsistencies.

If you're really going to understand what's going on and what needs to be done about it you'll need to accept that no particular school of economics has got all the answers to current economic problems, and that any economic theory will have to exist in a wider context where other disciplines like sociology, geography, psychology, biology and the arts will influence the choices people and governments make. Maybe it's economically good sense (for some people) to build a supermarket and an airport in a national park. Maybe it isn't. But it might be a sociological disaster to take away from people something which nobody knows how to value in financial terms and nobody really wants to value in financial terms. It might also cause an eccological disaster, but let's not get into that because there are probably a few loons on this site who really think the environment doesn't exist or affect humans.

Again i never said i didn't support planning permission. I just said it wasn't strictly free market. I also highlighted nobody would build a Tesco's in the middle of nowhere which is accurate.

All i said in the first place was that if we had a sound monetary system, the gov wouldn't have to correct the market periodically and could leave it to its own devices. I also highlighted where your example was flawed and that there was no impact from "monopolistic" practises.

People have been trying to draw all kinds of strawman arguments from this. I am not an Anarcho-capitalist, merely a Libetarian. I certainly think the UK has scope to be a lot more freer than it is, but i would still have some regulations.

[Robinho]

That's exactly what they do. Have you really not noticed or are you one of those Londoners who thinks crossing a postcode boundary is a long journey?

They don't build Tescos 10 miles from the nearest town.

They build Tescos on the outskirts of Towns where land is cheaper and there is space, but not 10 miles from it.

[moggy]

Walk down many streets in London (Camden town being a prime example)/Manchester/Birmingham, and you'll find lots of independent coffee shops, Cafe's and such like.

I'd be interested to know what happens to the independent retailers in the smaller German cities/towns when a large Supermarket opens up on the outskirts.

I was actually talking about a smaller town. (although not so much first hand knowledge of all towns clearly) There are plenty of Aldi/Lidl's around. Plus a larger City quite close by, prob 15/20 mins drive away.

[Scoobos]

They are no more bust than Canada, yet you have Canada is healthy and you are arguing America is buggered, even though Americas have quite a bit more purchasing power than Canadians.

Hmm, Im not so sure of this on a per capita basis. The petrodollar and the USA's protection / intervention to ensure it remains the international currency for oil might have more to do with their purchasing power.
I could be wrong though, as I'm no expert on Canada vs US.

[darmstadt]

Walk down many streets in London (Camden town being a prime example)/Manchester/Birmingham, and you'll find lots of independent coffee shops, Cafe's and such like.

I'd be interested to know what happens to the independent retailers in the smaller German cities/towns when a large Supermarket opens up on the outskirts.

Nothing, because the supermarkets on the outskirts have been there for years so there are no new ones. They didn't make an impact then and doubt very much they would now. In fact in the smaller cities and towns, independent retailers thrive...

[darmstadt]

indeed, was just thinking much the same. Walk down many streets in Germany and there are still plenty of independent coffee shops and such like.

Starbucks came to Germany a few years ago and a majority stakehold was bought by Karstadt, a major retailer. Stores opened in the major cities and a few towns with plans for expansion. the problem was, and still is, that no-one really went as the cafe culture is and was thriving. Karstadt eventually sold its stakeholding due to not making a profit and many Starbucks shutdown. The one area which is growing is McCafe (the McDonalds one) with them slowly changing all McDonalds into McCafe's and now burger King has got into the act. As for independent cafes, they're thriving and I'm seeing new ones open all the time. I think people over here don't always need the latest and greatest, are not blinded by 'bling'...