Maybe we should take Eugenics more seriously?

[DodgyAgent]

now yes, back in the 80's and early 90's no - North Sea oil anyone? starters for ten?

what did scotland get out of that?

Dodgy, there's no class system in Aus is there?

There the working class are labelled heroes "Aussie Battler" is something a blue landed rich guy is never going to attain.

Aus is productive, and has finance, industry and mining.

It's too easy to be dismissive and say "well move" ..... but then we both sit on such opposite sides of the fence.

For me, its this "Market Forces 100 Capitalism movement" that's caused the issues we have today.

It's better to have people employed in inefficient roles, than to strive for efficiency which results in 20%+ Unemployment . If you take away your enemy of the welfare state, then you'll still pay for it in crime , policing, healthcare, customers not having money to buy etc etc. Its called Externalising costs , I expect the Tories / belivers in pure capitalism to understand that.

It's costing us so much in "Externalised costs" but I dont think people like you DA, will ever even attempt to look on it with a macro view, its always going to be compared to the extremes and your own upbringing and opportunities.

People born into domestic violence, systematic unemployment and who's last member of the family who had a job was 3 generations ago don't have the mobility you seem to put on them - its not simple like logistics.

Britain's class system and desire to one up each other is our downfall. <end whiney spam>

Australia does have a class system and it is entirely based on money. It also has a 2 tier economy one of which is booming and the other is not (finance).
The problem we have with capitalism is that it is being manipulated to create monopolistic situations.Let me remind you"O hypocrite" that it is Capitalism and free markets that give you your wealth and your lifestyle (one of the richest people on the planet) and that keeps you away from the state that you patronisingly applaud
Social mobility is being stymied by the institutions of the left and the most telling of these is the education sector in failing to properly educate our children. This is encouraged by people like you who think yourselves virtuous by refusing to challenge public sector work practices -
Because our public services are run primarily for the benefit of the politicians and the benefit of those who work in them the cost to the rest of society in policing, healthcare, welfare is so massive it means that we cannot compete economically with other countries.
This vicious circle is as I have said driven by the dead hand of the state. Capitalism is not the problem, the problem is that the left are denying access to capitalism to vast swathes of the population. Your abuse of the "class system" cliche is one such example of how the left use negativity to manipulate people.

[Scoobos]

You are one nasty piece of work.

You always have to put something nasty and personal in every response.

We've been through this the two of us, when you throw "hypocrite" and other derogatory terms around - and I've had a reasonable answer to every pre-concieved picture you seem to have of my personality.

Just what has given you this hatred of anything other than your own opinion?

If you hate the public sector, welfare state, striving to redistribute wealth - then why don't you stop being a "Hypocrite" and go move somewhere that has none of these things - and see how you deal with crime and hatred at a level only your hate filled rants on here can equal?

Go to Guatemala, or Brazil, "make it happen" if its so easy for you.

[Scoobos]

Australia does have a class system and it is entirely based on money. It also has a 2 tier economy one of which is booming and the other is not (finance).

Social mobility is being stymied by the institutions of the left and the most telling of these is the education sector in failing to properly educate our children. .

1st paragraph is rubbish.

Your famed tory beliefs have also just agreed that teachers dont even have to be qualified anymore. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-19076852

Forget what the qualified teachers think of that, but then they would object wouldn't they, being the useless effortless rubbish public sector workers that you guys paint them as.. Not the 65+ hour workers who spend 40% teaching and 60% filling out beurocratic crap for the right to use against them.

After all, if teachers arent qualified teachers, then we can ensure that the working classes (such as myself in the beginning) can never challenge you guys with their own opinions and free will - as History, Music and the Arts is destroyed for what "Business" wants.

[sasguru]

Australia does have a class system and it is entirely based on money. It also has a 2 tier economy one of which is booming and the other is not (finance).
The problem we have with capitalism is that it is being manipulated to create monopolistic situations.Let me remind you"O hypocrite" that it is Capitalism and free markets that give you your wealth and your lifestyle (one of the richest people on the planet) and that keeps you away from the state that you patronisingly applaud
Social mobility is being stymied by the institutions of the left and the most telling of these is the education sector in failing to properly educate our children. This is encouraged by people like you who think yourselves virtuous by refusing to challenge public sector work practices -
Because our public services are run primarily for the benefit of the politicians and the benefit of those who work in them the cost to the rest of society in policing, healthcare, welfare is so massive it means that we cannot compete economically with other countries.
This vicious circle is as I have said driven by the dead hand of the state. Capitalism is not the problem, the problem is that the left are denying access to capitalism to vast swathes of the population. Your abuse of the "class system" cliche is one such example of how the left use negativity to manipulate people.

I note in this bigoted rant that nowhere do you mention how the principles of capitalism have been usurped by the right wing elite, abetted by the politicans who they fund, so that they enrich themselves via large corporations without taking an iota of risk.
There is now a mediocre management rentier class who enrich themselves regardless of performance and who are being subsidised by the state to a tune that makes the whole welfare bill look like small change.

[DodgyAgent]

I note in this bigoted rant that nowhere do you mention how the principles of capitalism have been usurped by the right wing elite, abetted by the politicans who they fund, so that they enrich themselves via large corporations without taking an iota of risk.
There is now a mediocre management rentier class who enrich themselves regardless of performance and who are being subsidised by the state to a tune that makes the whole welfare bill look like small change.

That is the point that I was making about "capitalism being manipulated"

[Old Greg]

I note in this bigoted rant that nowhere do you mention how the principles of capitalism have been usurped by the right wing elite, abetted by the politicans who they fund, so that they enrich themselves via large corporations without taking an iota of risk.
There is now a mediocre management rentier class who enrich themselves regardless of performance and who are being subsidised by the state to a tune that makes the whole welfare bill look like small change.

These are the principles of capitalism. Never confuse free markets with capitalism. There is an overlap but that is all.

[sasguru]

That is the point that I was making about "capitalism being manipulated"

Well shouldn't you be more exercised by this since it is costing us trillions, rather than the chump change for the welfare bill.?
It is telling that Britain is now NOT competing with Germany as it was at the dawn of the 20th century , which has far outstripped it economically.
Germany has a bigger welfare state, so clearly it is not the concept of a welfare state per se that is the problem.

[DodgyAgent]

You are one nasty piece of work.

You always have to put something nasty and personal in every response.

We've been through this the two of us, when you throw "hypocrite" and other derogatory terms around - and I've had a reasonable answer to every pre-concieved picture you seem to have of my personality.

Just what has given you this hatred of anything other than your own opinion?

If you hate the public sector, welfare state, striving to redistribute wealth - then why don't you stop being a "Hypocrite" and go move somewhere that has none of these things - and see how you deal with crime and hatred at a level only your hate filled rants on here can equal?

Go to Guatemala, or Brazil, "make it happen" if its so easy for you.

I would like to add the word stupid to my list of derogatory terms. You seem by your whole attitude to view this entire political argument as one of capitalism vs the state. Let us forget that you are quite happy to feed off the fat of capitalism whilst at the same time dishing it and supporting the state (despite its failures). I am afraid that I do not take this line.

My own view is that there are certain services that should not be run on strictly capitalist principles but that where capitalist principles work (competition, accountability, responsibility) they should wherever they can be applied to the public sector. For instance in the work place public sector workers should be made to work at least as hard as those in the most demanding jobs in the private sector or indeed the public sector (say front line troops in the army). They should not be pampered with job protection laws and they should be kept "honest" by being fully accountable for what they do and subject to much easier dismissal processes than exist currently. Those that rely on these services (not you) the most deserve nothing but the very best.
The teachers in the public sector may be perfectly adequate for the jobs but they are not performing because they are not being incentivised or managed to do so. Why are we not debating for instance putting the power back in the hands of the consumer by looking at a system that creates vouchers for education? (I can hear the cries of its not fair already)

The left do not want the link between capitalism and state controlled services to close because to do so would remove poor people from society. Without poor people these hypocrites would not have anyone else to play out their personal virtue on behalf of.

Also Scoobos if you ever bothered to read anything you have written you will not see a single logically thought out and presented argument. Like all lefties you try to provoke consciences by bleating out meaningless cliches.

[Old Greg]

I would like to add the word stupid to my list of derogatory terms. You seem by your whole attitude to view this entire political argument as one of capitalism vs the state. Let us forget that you are quite happy to feed off the fat of capitalism whilst at the same time dishing it and supporting the state (despite its failures). I am afraid that I do not take this line.

My own view is that there are certain services that should not be run on strictly capitalist principles but that where capitalist principles work (competition, accountability, responsibility) they should wherever they can be applied to the public sector. For instance in the work place public sector workers should be made to work at least as hard as those in the most demanding jobs in the private sector or indeed the public sector (say front line troops in the army). They should not be pampered with job protection laws and they should be kept "honest" by being fully accountable for what they do and subject to much easier dismissal processes than exist currently. Those that rely on these services (not you) the most deserve nothing but the very best.
The teachers in the public sector may be perfectly adequate for the jobs but they are not performing because they are not being incentivised or managed to do so. Why are we not debating for instance putting the power back in the hands of the consumer by looking at a system that creates vouchers for education? (I can hear the cries of its not fair already)

The left do not want the link between capitalism and state controlled services to close because to do so would remove poor people from society. Without poor people these hypocrites would not have anyone else to play out their personal virtue on behalf of.

Also Scoobos if you ever bothered to read anything you have written you will not see a single logically thought out and presented argument. Like all lefties you try to provoke consciences by bleating out meaningless cliches.

Yes you are stupid. Well spotted.

[DodgyAgent]

Well shouldn't you be more exercised by this since it is costing us trillions, rather than the chump change for the welfare bill.?
It is telling that Britain is now NOT competing with Germany as it was at the dawn of the 20th century , which has far outstripped it economically.
Germany has a bigger welfare state, so clearly it is not the concept of a welfare state per se that is the problem.

Are you saying that we should ignore the failings of the state because capitalism is not working as we would like it to?
Dont fall into the leftie trap of assuming that because I criticise the state I am lauding the private sector - I am not.