Message for the current (and any subsequent) Governments

[Old Greg]

Everbody in the UK should be on a fixed income, and it should be fixed at the rate of the lowest paid individual.

If we are going to have equality, then lets have equality.

Everybody lives in the exact same type of accomodation. this will mean knocking down most of the dwellings in the UK and rebuilding, but this will give everybody work.

Everybody eats and drinks from a set menue.

No private vehicles, only public transport or community owned cycles.

No private boats only commercial boats.

Everybody gets the same rights to education and the same curriculum, no private schools and universities.

I'll be living in canada while this state lasts

About 3 months at the most

I don't know any socialists who believe everyone should be the same.

[sasguru]

Those of you debating capitalism or socialism, as if we've had either in this country, are deluded.
We have neither in this country, nor ever have had,, merely an oligarchy. I ought to know, I'm part of it.
I do think a mixture of capiatlism and socialism works best: just look at Germany. They've got the balance right.
We're merely a bankrupt island with delusions of historical grandeur.

[Old Greg]

Those of you debating capitalism or socialism, as if we've had either in this country, are deluded.
We have neither in this country, nor ever have had,, merely an oligarchy. I ought to know, I'm part of it.
I do think a mixture of capiatlism and socialism works best: just look at Germany. They've got the balance right.
We're merely a bankrupt island with delusions of historical grandeur.

Oligarchy co-exists happily with capitalism.

[Scoobos]

WHS (sasguru)

Personally, I think a lot of people have socialism and social responsibility confused, and nationalism too.

The NHS and Free education is a nationalised interest based on social responsibility , not socialism.

good book on it (I read it at Uni - Health Care Analysis, Volume 5, Number 3 - SpringerLink)

I have sympathy with EO's view, which in my opinion is completely right - we have had the piss taken out of us - I don't so much care about the small minority (in my view they are) of people who genuinely want not to work , but the foreign nationals - especially in the EU, who see us as a soft touch and take the mick.

I just think we need to stop reforming and start using common sense with what we have.

But saying that we need to completely stop supporting the poor and let the rich just get richer - thats kind of whats been happening since the 70's.

The generation of the 70's who pandered to the stupid unionism of the time only have themselves to blame, but we've ended up punishing their children, their childrens children and so on.

We've gone from extreme to extreme when the wealthy can completely lose compassion. Capitalism as we have it now has gone too far, its not serving the public interest at all. Corporations were originally formed to serve the public btw...

I've been on my soapbox too much tho today, im having a beer and a gaming session :P

Good thread in the end...

[EternalOptimist]

They weren't socialist. The workers were not in control.

look, Im not political, but that is bonkers

the smallest organisation where its possible to have more than one in control is two.

we have two cats, one is the boss.
in a marriage - one always leads


how do you force people to be equal ? its bonkers

[Old Greg]

look, Im not political, but that is bonkers

the smallest organisation where its possible to have more than one in control is two.

we have two cats, one is the boss.
in a marriage - one always leads


how do you force people to be equal ? its bonkers

Don't mistake equality with the socialist model of ownership.

[EternalOptimist]

Don't mistake equality with the socialist model of ownership.

ho ho

ok.

how can two blokes run a socialist enterprise.
yesterday one had bought the field, bought the seed
hired the labourer, paid the taxes, found the market and organised the deliveries.
we have an owner and a worker

that was yesterday

so in your mind - what happens today and tomorrow ?

[DodgyAgent]

You cannot debate socialism in isolation from capitalism, although you seem keen to draw a box around the terms of the debate. Socialism as a political philosophy exists as a response to capitalism. How can you compare two systems if you will only talk about one? But you go on about locusts and ranging insects if you like and then in the next sentence complain about clichés. It's laughable.

I happen to think that workers can effectively own and run businesses. They manage with John Lewis.

You have still avoided a number of my questions by trying to move the debate. First of all public sector services- do we expect them to perform to the highest of standards if not why not?
You said that socialism created wealth and now you are saying it acts as a balance to capitalism. You have avoided answering the question yet again and you still cannot or will not explain how enterprise will flourish and how people will be incentivised to start businesses. These businesses are the ones that create the wealth that should be redistributed for the benefit of those who
perform tasks that are not especially financially rewarding.
I am not comparing capitalism with socialism as I think the two entities should work in harmony. My view is that capitalism is stymied and socialism as exercised by your lot is destructive. Capitalism should be encouraged and socialism should work for the benefit of the poorer sections of society.
And if the John Lewis model works so well how come there are so few enterprises that follow it?
My locusts analogy was no cliche it is a clear illustration of my point- albeit extreme.

[Old Greg]

ho ho

ok.

how can two blokes run a socialist enterprise.
yesterday one had bought the field, bought the seed
hired the labourer, paid the taxes, found the market and organised the deliveries.
we have an owner and a worker

that was yesterday

so in your mind - what happens today and tomorrow ?

If John Lewis can manage it, I'm sure a farm can.

[EternalOptimist]

If John Lewis can manage it, I'm sure a farm can.

you can do better than that. You must have some plan ???

why not use mugabes plan


take the guy who has the farm, the guy who paid for the seed , the training, the taxes, who did the planning and hired the labourer

then sack him or shoot him or kick him out, then give the farm to labourer.

well, that worked , didnt it