Message for the current (and any subsequent) Governments

[Old Greg]

Which is?

Ownership and control of work places resides with employees, not with shareholders or with the state.

[DodgyAgent]

Ownership and control of work places resides with employees, not with shareholders or with the state.

That is not creating is it. You are taking ownership from one group of people top another. Does it also occur to you that the shareholders are often pension funds of working class people?

[Old Greg]

That is not creating is it. You are taking ownership from one group of people top another. Does it also occur to you that the shareholders are often pension funds of working class people?

It is the work that creates, not the transfer of ownership. The transfer of ownership ensures fairer distribution, including to pensioners.

[DodgyAgent]

It is the work that creates, not the transfer of ownership. The transfer of ownership ensures fairer distribution, including to pensioners.

It is the work that sustains, it is the entrepreneur who creates it and it is then the owners and executive management who drive a business forward . Workers only create when they are incentivised to do so and then they need entrepreneurial drive and shrewdness. And why is transferring ownership to workers going to help pensioners who have their shareholding in FTSE companies taken away from them?
And whilst we are at it , it is not the large corporates who create the jobs and the wealth anyway it is the small and medium sized businesses. Are you suggesting these businesses should transfer their ownership equity over to the workers?

[Old Greg]

It is the work that sustains, it is the entrepreneur who creates it and it is then the owners and executive management who drive a business forward . Workers only create when they are incentivised to do so and then they need entrepreneurial drive and shrewdness. And why is transferring ownership to workers going to help pensioners who have their shareholding in FTSE companies taken away from them?
And whilst we are at it , it is not the large corporates who create the jobs and the wealth anyway it is the small and medium sized businesses. Are you suggesting these businesses should transfer their ownership equity over to the workers?

Look at the terrible state that capitalism has left vast swathed of the world's population in, not because of their idleness but because the economic system can only exist on the basis of vast inequalities where smear have more than they could ever need and others struggle to scrape by. And this is achieved by the model of ownership which will drive down wages to the minimum and throw whole communities into unemployment. So against that reality yes I think these change are necessary.

However I think the changes should be built incrementally and I don't think there is a need to design the end state completely. Think of it as a programme rather than a project.

So I'm not sure there is any need to start off with turning very small businesses into cooperatives. Start where the worst problems are, re-examine where we are and then decide what next. And do it all democratically of course. The alternative is the barbarism of the present.

[EternalOptimist]

The alternative is the barbarism of the present.

as opposed to the barbarism in Russia , China, Cambodia and lots of other places

flipping heck. even a kid could see through this nonsense.

there must be another way

[DodgyAgent]

Look at the terrible state that capitalism has left vast swathed of the world's population in, not because of their idleness but because the economic system can only exist on the basis of vast inequalities where smear have more than they could ever need and others struggle to scrape by. And this is achieved by the model of ownership which will drive down wages to the minimum and throw whole communities into unemployment. So against that reality yes I think these change are necessary.

However I think the changes should be built incrementally and I don't think there is a need to design the end state completely. Think of it as a programme rather than a project.

So I'm not sure there is any need to start off with turning very small businesses into cooperatives. Start where the worst problems are, re-examine where we are and then decide what next. And do it all democratically of course. The alternative is the barbarism of the present.

So now you are moving the debate onto safer territory by dishing capitalism (as if any alternative would be any better).
So lets stick to the question which is how does socialism create any wealth. I run a business, I have taken risks nearly gone bankrupt and I have struggled to ensure my staff get their wages every month. They have not had the responsibility to make sure that the cash is in the account. How do you think I and any other businessman would feel if some jolly little socialist wanders along and tells me I have to hand over my business to my workers? And what makes you think that my workers could run and build a business better than I could anyway? or that they even want to? particularly when they have absolutely no experience of knowing what it is like to meet a payroll each month?

Furthermore why would I or any other business person contemplate setting up a business whilst knowing that at some stage I/ he will/is going to be forced to sell or hand over the shares to the workers? No wealth creation has ever been done on this basis.

It illustrates my point that really socialists are like locusts. People work hard to prep[are the ground and grow their crops only to be ravaged by a plague of these insects.

Your cliches about "barbarism and inequalities" bear no relevance to this debate and you only use them to illicit emotion in order to prop up your non argument

[Old Greg]

So now you are moving the debate onto safer territory by dishing capitalism (as if any alternative would be any better).
So lets stick to the question which is how does socialism create any wealth. I run a business, I have taken risks nearly gone bankrupt and I have struggled to ensure my staff get their wages every month. They have not had the responsibility to make sure that the cash is in the account. How do you think I and any other businessman would feel if some jolly little socialist wanders along and tells me I have to hand over my business to my workers? And what makes you think that my workers could run and build a business better than I could anyway? or that they even want to? particularly when they have absolutely no experience of knowing what it is like to meet a payroll each month?

Furthermore why would I or any other business person contemplate setting up a business whilst knowing that at some stage I/ he will/is going to be forced to sell or hand over the shares to the workers? No wealth creation has ever been done on this basis.

It illustrates my point that really socialists are like locusts. People work hard to prep[are the ground and grow their crops only to be ravaged by a plague of these insects.

Your cliches about "barbarism and inequalities" bear no relevance to this debate and you only use them to illicit emotion in order to prop up your non argument

You cannot debate socialism in isolation from capitalism, although you seem keen to draw a box around the terms of the debate. Socialism as a political philosophy exists as a response to capitalism. How can you compare two systems if you will only talk about one? But you go on about locusts and ranging insects if you like and then in the next sentence complain about clichés. It's laughable.

I happen to think that workers can effectively own and run businesses. They manage with John Lewis.

[Diver]

Everbody in the UK should be on a fixed income, and it should be fixed at the rate of the lowest paid individual.

If we are going to have equality, then lets have equality.

Everybody lives in the exact same type of accomodation. this will mean knocking down most of the dwellings in the UK and rebuilding, but this will give everybody work.

Everybody eats and drinks from a set menue.

No private vehicles, only public transport or community owned cycles.

No private boats only commercial boats.

Everybody gets the same rights to education and the same curriculum, no private schools and universities.

I'll be living in canada while this state lasts

About 3 months at the most

[Old Greg]

as opposed to the barbarism in Russia , China, Cambodia and lots of other places

flipping heck. even a kid could see through this nonsense.

there must be another way

They weren't socialist. The workers were not in control.