It takes a nation of millions to hold us back

[Doggy Styles]

I have to say, only a genuine total ****wit could take a thread I have started bemoaning the state of education in Britain and use it to argue that I am against improving the standard of education in Britain. Talk about pick your battlegrounds.

I must admit mate I don't fully understand your argument.

It seems to me, and outsider to this debate, that your argument is that you cannot significantly improve the way education is delivered in the UK, because the great majority of causes of pupil under-achievement are from outside the schools. Thus improvements will only come from changing society. That's the way I read what you've said so far. So I get the impression that it is fairly pointless trying to change the internals of the education system.

I'm not 100% sure of dodgy's argument either but it's a bit clearer. From what I've read I think it says that, regardless of outside causes of pupil underachievement, you can still improve UK education delivery, but you won't unless you are willing to change the way things are done, and that is very difficult because there is a lot of resistance to change.

Have I got the wrong end of the stick?

[DodgyAgent]

I must admit mate I don't fully understand your argument.

It seems to me, and outsider to this debate, that your argument is that you cannot significantly improve the way education is delivered in the UK, because the great majority of causes of pupil under-achievement are from outside the schools. Thus improvements will only come from changing society. That's the way I read what you've said so far. So I get the impression that it is fairly pointless trying to change the internals of the education system.

I'm not 100% sure of dodgy's argument either but it's a bit clearer. From what I've read I think it says that, regardless of outside causes of pupil underachievement, you can still improve UK education delivery, but you won't unless you are willing to change the way things are done, and that is very difficult because there is a lot of resistance to change.

Have I got the wrong end of the stick?

Spot on with my bit

[scooterscot]

And that's what we have. Millions of thickos.







No wonder I feel like I'm talking to 5 year olds sometimes.

BBC News - Poor numeracy 'blights the economy and ruins lives'

Story bleating on about Britain's poor numeracy again when clearly this is problem in England. Braun down south with the brain up north, sounds about right. Although Jonny Wilkinson's drop kick seems less than successful these days. Aye the future's looking thick.

Scotland may have answers to English maths problem

A study by the Royal Society of Arts says England, where one in four adults cannot do basic calculations, is out-performed by the likes of Scotland and Hong Kong.

England's maths education is not fit for purpose and risks damaging the economy, it adds.

The government said England must keep up with leading education systems.

The RSA report cautions against adopting any country's teaching system wholesale but says that England should draw on the experiences of Scotland and Hong Kong to improve the effectiveness of its mathematics teaching.

[doodab]

I must admit mate I don't fully understand your argument.

It seems to me, and outsider to this debate, that your argument is that you cannot significantly improve the way education is delivered in the UK, because the great majority of causes of pupil under-achievement are from outside the schools. Thus improvements will only come from changing society. That's the way I read what you've said so far. So I get the impression that it is fairly pointless trying to change the internals of the education system.

I'm not 100% sure of dodgy's argument either but it's a bit clearer. From what I've read I think it says that, regardless of outside causes of pupil underachievement, you can still improve UK education delivery, but you won't unless you are willing to change the way things are done, and that is very difficult because there is a lot of resistance to change.

Have I got the wrong end of the stick?

I've never said that education couldn't or shouldn't be improved, this is simply something that DA has made up to suit himself. As regards his spoutings in particular, my argument is that a) most state services aren't "manifest failures" as he likes to make out and b) calling for all services to be "as good as the best" sounds good but doesn't actually make sense when you look at it critically.

As regards education, I'm sure you can improve the delivery of education in the UK but I don't believe it will make that much difference to outcomes for low achieving pupils because they are low achievers due to other factors. As regards how to improve education, I don't think easing labour laws will help, because lots of places with stricter labour laws have education systems that outperform the UK, I don't think throwing money at it will help, because we are actually slightly above the OECD average, and I don't think tinkering with the mechanisms for parental choice to create "competition" will help unless you can make it a real choice which means creating a surplus of places in the education system.

Some things I do think will help are starting school later and reducing the pressure on families to have two parents working.

So the upshot of that is although I'm all for improving educational outcomes, I don't think DA's suggestions will work and I don't think his expectations are realistic. Try and point this out to him and you will be called a lefty and accused of resisting any and all change, because his mind isn't sophisticated enough to grasp anything more nuanced than the fact you don't agree with him.

[DodgyAgent]

I've never said that education couldn't or shouldn't be improved, this is simply something that DA has made up to suit himself. As regards his spoutings in particular, my argument is that a) most state services aren't "manifest failures" as he likes to make out and b) calling for all services to be "as good as the best" sounds good but doesn't actually make sense when you look at it critically.

As regards education, I'm sure you can improve the delivery of education in the UK but I don't believe it will make that much difference to outcomes for low achieving pupils because they are low achievers due to other factors. As regards how to improve education, I don't think easing labour laws will help, because lots of places with stricter labour laws have education systems that outperform the UK, I don't think throwing money at it will help, because we are actually slightly above the OECD average, and I don't think tinkering with the mechanisms for parental choice to create "competition" will help unless you can make it a real choice which means creating a surplus of places in the education system.

Some things I do think will help are starting school later and reducing the pressure on families to have two parents working.

So the upshot of that is although I'm all for improving educational outcomes, I don't think DA's suggestions will work and I don't think his expectations are realistic. Try and point this out to him and you will be called a lefty and accused of resisting any and all change, because his mind isn't sophisticated enough to grasp anything more nuanced than the fact you don't agree with him.

Spoken like a true NUT trade union official

[Freamon]

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