It takes a nation of millions to hold us back

[Doggy Styles]

I've never said therr isn't room for improvement in education. Simply that there is a lot more room for improvement in dodgy's thought processes.

I don't think dodgy is saying what you think he is saying. Event agents know not everyone can be top of the class.

But he does say that there is a lot of room for improvement in schooling. We keep banging on about how good education is in other countries, so what are we doing here that is so different to foreign climes?

[doodab]

I think you are missing DAs point (though I might be too).

He is not suggesting that 100% should pass the exams, but he is suggesting that the education provided enables 100% of those capable of doing so to do so.
Whether you like it or not, there is clear evidence that a a number of state schools fall well behind the teaching standards of other state schools and the private sector.
The nation as a whole and parents in particular have every right to expect that all children will be educated to the best standards to allow them to reach the heights they are capable of.

He repeatedly says that all schools should acheive the standards of the very best. When measured by exam performance, that means 100% pass rates at GCSE.

I've no doubt there are some problem schools ,invariably these are in deprived areas and have more deprived kids in them. Educating those people is harder. Getting good people to want to live and work there is harder. These are problems that need to be solved, and giving parents vouchers so they can spend them at the same school because there isn't a good school with free places near by isn't going to solve them. Those parents who care already applied to that school and didn't get a place.

I've said many times that the biggest determinant of academic performance is socioeconomic background. There is copious data to back this up. Unless you solve the problems of inequality in society, improving education won't make much difference to outcomes.

This is something I care about, as my own child has just started school and didn't get a place at any of the first choice schools. Vouchers would have made **** all difference, because the places aren't there.

[DodgyAgent]

Dear Thicky,

The point, which I have to conclude you are simply incapable of grasping, is that your endless ranting along the lines of "everything has to be the very best or it's a disaster" helps nobody and has no place in an intelligent debate. There is no mechanism to raise the general level of a population up to the "standards of the very best of them", because the standards, in the sense they are defined here, simply don't work like that. If you want exams to distinguish between the best and worst pupils, and you wish to decrease the variance in the performance of individual schools based on measuring exam performance, then you are going to see some schools do worse when others do better, simply because of how better and worse is measured. You cannot have every school achieving a 100% pass rate in every exam unless every exam has a 100% pass rate.

The simple fact is, I can see that what you are demanding is impossible. I can prove, mathematically, that it's impossible. Alas, it appears that trying to persuade someone as stupid as you that this is the case is also impossible. Hence, I'm not going to bother discussing this with you any more as you are simply too stupid for it to be anything other than practice for when my 5 year old asks for help with his homework. I will however reserve the right to question your thicky rantings if you decide to rant about something else.

This is such a ridiculously lame argument that it is laughable. Do you think that the provision of food supply is perfect? It is not, far from it - I cannot buy Pol Roger champagne at my local Tesco. I am sure that this can be proved mathematically too . Apply your pathetic argument to this then all food should according to your logic be supplied by the state through a single retailer (A 5 year old with no maths will then be able to show you what is meant by inefficiency ).

So then because perfection is not attainable we should not bother? Tell that to the 1000s of Olympic competitors - that because they cannot achieve perfection there is little point in turning up

and as AB points out where in any of my arguments did I say that getting high level results is what education should be about? My point about education is that it should bring the best out of children in whatever subject or sport or hobby (music). If one school can do it then they all can -

I take it you dont have children?

Thicko

[doodab]

I don't think dodgy is saying what you think he is saying. Event agents know not everyone can be top of the class.

But he does say that there is a lot of room for improvement in schooling. We keep banging on about how good education is in other countries, so what are we doing here that is so different to foreign climes?

Starting school earlier, endless tests and league tables, forcing both parents back to work while someone else raises their kids, parents working longer hours, having a more unequal society in general.

[Arturo Bassick]

I've said many times that the biggest determinant of academic performance is socioeconomic background. There is copious data to back this up. Unless you solve the problems of inequality in society, improving education won't make much difference to outcomes.

No doubt this is an issue, but there are any number of reports of the worst failing schools being turned around to being the best. Not many I grant, but it has been done which disproves the stereotype. If one can do it others can.

This is something I care about, as my own child has just started school and didn't get a place at any of the first choice schools. Vouchers would have made **** all difference, because the places aren't there.

If Dodgies Nirvana existed then there would be no need to make a choice of school.

[doodab]

This is such a ridiculously lame argument that it is laughable.

It's not an argument about perfection you diptulip. It's an argument that when you have a population, and you measure the variance in the mean in multiple disjoint subsets of that population that decreasing the variance in the mean of those disjoint subsets means that some individual means will go down as well as up.

Do you think that the provision of food supply is perfect? It is not, far from it - I cannot buy Pol Roger champagne at my local Tesco. I am sure that this can be proved mathematically too . Apply your pathetic argument to this then all food should according to your logic be supplied by the state through a single retailer (A 5 year old with no maths will then be able to show you what is meant by inefficiency ).

So then because perfection is not attainable we should not bother? Tell that to the 1000s of Olympic competitors - that because they cannot achieve perfection there is little point in turning up

I'm not arguing for state supply of anything you stupid ****er. I'm pointing out that what you are continuously demanding is impossible.

My point about education is that it should bring the best out of children in whatever subject or sport or hobby (music). If one school can do it then they all can -

Perhaps they already do. We can't tell because that isn't what is being measured.

You really are a first class troll. You start off ranting and when people pick holes in your argument you scale back to being mr reasonable. I've got you sussed. And you are going on ignore.

Now FOAD you slimy brylcreemed twat.

[doodab]

If one can do it others can.

Some can. But not all of them. There are cases of good ones getting less good as well.

Going from one example to a general rule while ignoring the rest of the evidence is exactly the sort of potato headed daily mail logic which education is supposed to stamp out.

[DodgyAgent]

He repeatedly says that all schools should acheive the standards of the very best. When measured by exam performance, that means 100% pass rates at GCSE.

I've no doubt there are some problem schools ,invariably these are in deprived areas and have more deprived kids in them. Educating those people is harder. Getting good people to want to live and work there is harder. These are problems that need to be solved, and giving parents vouchers so they can spend them at the same school because there isn't a good school with free places near by isn't going to solve them. Those parents who care already applied to that school and didn't get a place.

I've said many times that the biggest determinant of academic performance is socioeconomic background. There is copious data to back this up. Unless you solve the problems of inequality in society, improving education won't make much difference to outcomes.

This is something I care about, as my own child has just started school and didn't get a place at any of the first choice schools. Vouchers would have made **** all difference, because the places aren't there.

The best chance kids have of improving their socioeconomic background is to give them a decent education., Your friends on the left prefer to borrow money and then spend it on making more people poorer

[doodab]

I have to say, only a genuine total ****wit could take a thread I have started bemoaning the state of education in Britain and use it to argue that I am against improving the standard of education in Britain. Talk about pick your battlegrounds.

[DodgyAgent]

I have to say, only a genuine total ****wit could take a thread I have started bemoaning the state of education in Britain and use it to argue that I am against improving the standard of education in Britain. Talk about pick your battlegrounds.

Please excuse me I am a little on the thick side

I mean yes it so off topic to respond by discussing the reasons for the poor state of education. And it is probably inappropriate that I should point out that you personally support the status quo and have no desire to discuss or even accept the concept of change.
And for me to then go and point out the parallel between your views and the vested interests within the education system is probably even more unreasonable..

In our last "argument" you questioned whether the system of education was actually bad at all. then you go on to give an example of it failing.