Question for socialists

[xoggoth]

most private-sector capitalists seem to know as much about ethics as I do about Rugby Football

True. But one can make the same comment about the public sector, the low productivity of those who are handed total job security, the gold plated pensions paid for by others who can't begin to afford them themelves, the exploitation of centralised power by the unions to demand wage increases paid for by other people who are seeing wage cuts and losing their jobs. How some of these people have the nerve to call themselves socialists I have no idea, their actions do not fit Marx's mantra, that's for sure.

That is why we need the middle road - private enterprise, where appropriate, that is subject to the crude but effective check of the free market to stop pointless empire building and waste, in conjunction with strong independent government regulators to make sure that they can make reasonable profits but do not exploit the consumer.

Much of the problem we have had with PPI etc is due to the complete failure of the public sector to set proper conditions for contracts or to enforce them, mainly because of the poor quality of public sector workers in my view. That is what you get when there are rigid union-enforced wage scales that do not properly reward personal ability.

[pjclarke]

. If Tesco can deliver health services that are better and more cost effective than the current system then why not let them?

In principle, fine. The issue comes with how you define 'better'. By definition a private sector business is driven by profit, and there are some aspects of health care that are essential but will never, ever be profitable. On past form Tesco would set up large edge of town supersurgeries, accessible only by car, forcing local community GPs out of business, cherry-pick the 'profitable' diseases leaving those with chronic conditions to rot, centralise distribution of medical supplies so bandages would be shipped from their production pount half way across the country then back again because its marginally cheaper, etc etc....

And who exctly would train Tesco's doctors?

[DodgyAgent]

In principle, fine. The issue comes with how you define 'better'. By definition a private sector business is driven by profit, and there are some aspects of health care that are essential but will never, ever be profitable. On past form Tesco would set up large edge of town supersurgeries, accessible only by car, forcing local community GPs out of business, cherry-pick the 'profitable' diseases leaving those with chronic conditions to rot, centralise distribution of medical supplies so bandages would be shipped from their production pount half way across the country then back again because its marginally cheaper, etc etc....

And who exctly would train Tesco's doctors?

Then these are the challenges that should be discussed. Also you are making conclusions for which you have no evidence to support. Why for instance would be "out of town"? Why assume that they would be integrated into existing supermarkets? and if the poor can get to Tesco to buy cheap food then why not also medical provision?
Again your entire mentality is to throw barricades up to support something that does'nt work anyway.
Where exactly you got your "own past form" evidence from I dont know.
Anyway what are you doing on this site? if you are genuinely a contractor you show few signs of being one. Are you some left wing troll sent here by the labour party? if so you are not doing a very good job.

[pjclarke]

the low productivity of those who are handed total job security, the gold plated pensions paid for by others who can't begin to afford them themelves, the exploitation of centralised power by the unions to demand wage increases paid for by other people who are seeing wage cuts and losing their jobs.

I am afraid that caricature is out of date, and I doubt it was ever accurate. The recent deficit reduction measures ( the deficit resulting largely from the financial crisis and subsequent recession) will lead to 610,000 public sector redundancies equivalent to sacking the entire civil service, and the median public sector pension is a far from gold-plated £5,600.

[TimberWolf]

I'm not entirely convinced that it has been satisfactorily shown that it wasn't capitalism that caused the current financial crisis and that socialism isn't now bailing us out of its consequences.

[pjclarke]

Heh

Socialism for the rich and capitalism for the poor - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Old Greg]

They are pretty efficient at distributing food so why not healthcare? I do take your point however. If Tesco can deliver health services that are better and more cost effective than the current system then why not let them?

Because they are probably the largest seller of cigarettes, alcohol and processed food in the country, and they may therefore have a conflict of interest.

[pjclarke]

So? British American Tobacco is part of Zurich Financial Services Group, whose life assurance companies will give a discount to non-smokers. Its all just bizniss....

[DodgyAgent]

Heh

Socialism for the rich and capitalism for the poor - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I am not sure I fully understand this. If it refers to the concept that too much money and power is held by too few people, and that many large corporations are in monopolistic positions with monopolies being created by governments imposing such legislation that only large companies can afford to comply then I wholeheartedly agree that there is a problem.

Private schools are charities and whatever the anecdotes they are more efficient than public sector schools and they provide better education - so why not give children, parents/guardians vouchers in order that they can enjoy the power of choice that the rich enjoy. Why not explore the creation of enterprises that operate not just according to the bottom line - cooperatives. Private schools are not run purely for profit (very few are indeed profitable) and the very best (public or private) are the standards that should be demanded for all children.

The debates need to move on from being left vs right, private vs public. The truth is that public/essential services are appalling and discussions and policies should be based upon "what works" not according to political/idealistic agendas.

[DodgyAgent]

I'm not entirely convinced that it has been satisfactorily shown that it wasn't capitalism that caused the current financial crisis and that socialism isn't now bailing us out of its consequences.

It was the redistribution of wealth generated by capitalist activities that was excessive and brought about the sovereign debt crises of countries such as the UK. Only capitalism created the wealth in the first place.