France says Britain should lose its AAA rating

[Doggy Styles]

The problem with Europhiles is that they can't see the bigger picture: Europe is a continent in long-term relative decline, not least in germany which faces a demographic time bomb.
As I 've argued before a better geo-economoc-political strategy for Britain would be to disengage from the EU and seek our destiny, as we used to do, in thw wider world.
Doing that would force us to address our economic weaknesses but also make the most of strengths e.g. financial services

You mean... organise our affairs to suit ourselves? There's a novel idea!

[BrilloPad]

Why does everybody have to be put in a camp of 'europhiles' or 'eurosceptics'?

Isn't there actually a much larger group that can be seen as 'couldn't give a toss as long as the economic problems get sorted out somehow'?

Of course when Eurogedden happens (can you see the ECB printing money?) our economic issues are going to get worse. Whether the UK is Europhile or Eurosceptic is irrelevant. Except as a scapegoat when it goes tits up.

[CheeseSlice]

Why does everybody have to be put in a camp of 'europhiles' or 'eurosceptics'?

Isn't there actually a much larger group that can be seen as 'couldn't give a toss as long as X-Factor, Corrie and Eastenders are still on telly?

FTFY

actually, I'm sure any X-Factor fan would be a Eurosceptic after watching the highly politicised Eurovision song contest.

[Mich the Tester]

The problem with Europhiles is that they can't see the bigger picture: Europe is a continent in long-term relative decline, not least in germany which faces a demographic time bomb.

'Relative decline' does not necessarily equal decline.

Yes, there's a demographic problem which is pressuring government revenues and expenditure; I'm disappointed to see that the Dutch government, so full of themselves about cutting expenditure and helping the economy, are not prepared to tackle the two biggest problems; firstly the idiotic mortgage interest tax relief which encourages people to take on huge debts and not repay them, secondly the pension age; they're hamstrung by attracting baby boom voters with big mortgages and so don't want to face the reality that pension age needs to rise NOW instead of over 10 years, and the mortgage interest tax relief needs to be reformed into an incentive to repay and reduce personal debt.

However, 'Europe', regardless of the EU, Euro etc, and therefore including Britain, still has enormous potential for economic growth; Europe's universities and research institutes are still scientific powerhouses, and Europe (along with the US, which has a few problems of it's own in this area) has the great advantage of freedom of expression and a culture of academic freedom; put simply, you're free as a scientist or academic in Europe to go against the grain, go against the party line and research what you find interesting instead of what some short sighted politician says you should research. This should not be underestimated. China and Russia do not give this freedom to their citizens, Brazil and India perhaps more so; that's why I think in the long run, of the BRICs, Brazil and India will do well, China and Russia might struggle. But that actually helps Europe, because their scientists will seek cooperation with other free minded researchers, in, you guessed it, Europe. Remember; fundamental research provides knowledge for applied science. Stop the fundamental work and there'll be nothing to apply. Europe does quite a lot of fundamental research, in a very free climate.

The question for me is whether Europe's national politicians have the foresight to preserve or in fact boost our scientific and academic communities by providing the funds, sorting out secondary education, encouraging international students and researchers instead of choosing short term national interests and encouraging life long learning. Unfortunately the current bunch of spivs in the Dutch government like to use the rhetoric of a 'knowledge economy' while implementing short sighted nationalist policies.

[doodab]

The problem with Europhiles is that they can't see the bigger picture: Europe is a continent in long-term relative decline, not least in germany which faces a demographic time bomb.
As I 've argued before a better geo-economoc-political strategy for Britain would be to disengage from the EU and seek our destiny, as we used to do, in thw wider world.
Doing that would force us to address our economic weaknesses but also make the most of strengths e.g. financial services

Yes, because the Europeans aren't seeking their destiny in the wider world are they. Who do you think does more business with China, or the US for that matter? Germany beats us on both counts and taken as a whole the EU is the largest trading partner of both nations. If we left the EU we would actually make expanding our trade with these places more difficult IMO.

[DodgyAgent]

Of course when Eurogedden happens (can you see the ECB printing money?) our economic issues are going to get worse. Whether the UK is Europhile or Eurosceptic is irrelevant. Except as a scapegoat when it goes tits up.

true

[sasguru]

'Relative decline' does not necessarily equal decline.

Yes, there's a demographic problem which is pressuring government revenues and expenditure; I'm disappointed to see that the Dutch government, so full of themselves about cutting expenditure and helping the economy, are not prepared to tackle the two biggest problems; firstly the idiotic mortgage interest tax relief which encourages people to take on huge debts and not repay them, secondly the pension age; they're hamstrung by attracting baby boom voters with big mortgages and so don't want to face the reality that pension age needs to rise NOW instead of over 10 years, and the mortgage interest tax relief needs to be reformed into an incentive to repay and reduce personal debt.

However, 'Europe', regardless of the EU, Euro etc, and therefore including Britain, still has enormous potential for economic growth; Europe's universities and research institutes are still scientific powerhouses, and Europe (along with the US, which has a few problems of it's own in this area) has the great advantage of freedom of expression and a culture of academic freedom; put simply, you're free as a scientist or academic in Europe to go against the grain, go against the party line and research what you find interesting instead of what some short sighted politician says you should research. This should not be underestimated. China and Russia do not give this freedom to their citizens, Brazil and India perhaps more so; that's why I think in the long run, of the BRICs, Brazil and India will do well, China and Russia might struggle. But that actually helps Europe, because their scientists will seek cooperation with other free minded researchers, in, you guessed it, Europe. Remember; fundamental research provides knowledge for applied science. Stop the fundamental work and there'll be nothing to apply. Europe does quite a lot of fundamental research, in a very free climate.

The question for me is whether Europe's national politicians have the foresight to preserve or in fact boost our scientific and academic communities by providing the funds, sorting out secondary education, encouraging international students and researchers instead of choosing short term national interests and encouraging life long learning. Unfortunately the current bunch of spivs in the Dutch government like to use the rhetoric of a 'knowledge economy' while implementing short sighted nationalist policies.

Good points on freedoms: but
(1) you cannot assume those freedoms will continue in Europe, if there's a disastrous economic event. The continent has a history of being nasty to foreigners when things get bad. In any case its arguable that the free movement of academics ever existed especially in Germany and Austria (this may be a language thing). e.g. in the 19th cebtury the University of Vienna wa the equal of Oxbridge now its not because it didn't take the cleverest people from around the world.
(2) it is almost a dead cert that China and Russia will eventually gain more freedom. History shows that as a people get rich and therefore educated they don't tolerate dictatorships too long. The internet now plays a masssive role in spreading the growth of ideas. I wouldn't be surprised if Chiba becomes more liberal in ourr lifetime.

[Mich the Tester]

Good points on freedoms: but
(1) you cannot assume those freedoms will continue in Europe, if there's a disastrous economic event. The continent has a history of being nasty to foreigners when things get bad. In any case its arguable that the free movement of academics ever existed especially in Germany and Austria (this may be a language thing). e.g. in the 19th cebtury the University of Vienna wa the equal of Oxbridge now its not because it didn't take the cleverest people from around the world.
(2) it is almost a dead cert that China and Russia will eventually gain more freedom. History shows that as a people get rich and therefore educated they don't tolerate dictatorships too long. The internet now plays a masssive role in spreading the growth of ideas. I wouldn't be surprised if Chiba becomes more liberal in ourr lifetime.

1; agreed, we need a few 'leaders' who can explain this to people instead of populist bulltulipters who pander to the fears and prejudices of the masses. There is hope, but not a lot right now. Dutch universities, particularly the technical universities, attract quite a lot of foreign students and top researchers; however, the cretin in charge of education here right now wants to stop them teaching in English, out of some silly nationalist fervour, and thereby make life difficult for international academics; he also wants to make drastic cuts in liberal arts, which are actually a part of the equation when it comes to staying attractive to top academics. However, I don't think the current government's going to last until easter.

2; Not sure; I think China and Russia will have a very bumpy road to becoming more liberal, and India and Brazil (and even a few other Latin American and possibly African countries) will overtake them along the way.

[doodab]

Good points on freedoms: but
(1) you cannot assume those freedoms will continue in Europe, if there's a disastrous economic event. The continent has a history of being nasty to foreigners when things get bad. In any case its arguable that the free movement of academics ever existed especially in Germany and Austria (this may be a language thing). e.g. in the 19th cebtury the University of Vienna wa the equal of Oxbridge now its not because it didn't take the cleverest people from around the world.

A lot of German universities now offer courses in English, and there are no tuition fees for foreigners, never mind the locals, so I'd expect them to be OK. Finland is the same, Sweden also and tuition is free for EU nationals so TBH I wouldn't be surprised to see more British people studying overseas now.

[sasguru]

Yes, because the Europeans aren't seeking their destiny in the wider world are they. Who do you think does more business with China, or the US for that matter? Germany beats us on both counts and taken as a whole the EU is the largest trading partner of both nations. If we left the EU we would actually make expanding our trade with these places more difficult IMO.

But if we were out of the EU, we would see Germany (and the EU) as our competitor and hopefully respond appropriately.
IMHO being in the Euro saps most of the countries vim and vigour - its certainly the case that a lot of Euro countries now feel they can piggy-back on Germany.