Stupid Germans

[EternalOptimist]

I've been saying for the last five years that we should pay more attention to the history of the US.

They were a collection of independant states that came together to form a union, grew together and got on quite well. Then when states right became a problem, some of them tried to leave and it resulted in a massive civil war

the parallels are stronger than the 'versailles connection' imo

[sasguru]

Daily Mail middle England... Intolerant bigots who can't see further than their own prejudiced views

Why play the bigot card every time rather than address the valid points I'm making?

[Doggy Styles]

Why play the bigot card every time rather than address the valid points I'm making?

I've got to agree with sas's principle here. All history is there to learn from. Ignore it and you make the same mistakes. No brainer really.

[xoggoth]

The only thought needed here is why people in England believe the events of 70 years ago have any bearing on those affected by today's crisis

You seriously believe that similar events will have no probability of producing similar results? Obviously there will many differences that may affect the outcome but generally human beings, when provoked in the same way, will react in the same way.

[darmstadt]

Why play the bigot card every time rather than address the valid points I'm making?

Not just you but every time someone brings up Germany then its all 'look what happened 70 years ago' and such well worn endearments. If we are to learn from history then we should be using that knowledge to stop it repeating not just mouthing these silly little platitudes. I would have expected that someone who come across as educated not to act like a 'little englander' and continuously spout moronic lower middle class rubbish each time but to instead act in a mature educated manner. Yes, Germany has and will continue to make mistakes but so does Britain but because of the insular nature of the British people, who either live in Britain or in expat-enclaves, they cannot accept that.

Someone sent me this a short while ago, I don't know who wrote it and sadly I agree with some of it:

There is the famous if apocryphal British weather report: "Fog descends over Channel; continent cut off". Since then, England has pretty much refused to acknowledge the continent's existence.

England's passive citizenry and its proverbial "stiff upper lip" may have gotten them through World War II but also allowed the country's formerly admirable institutions such as education and transportation to fall into disarray and deterioration due to privatization. It has allowed the enrichment of the yuppie generation in greater London and southeast to help itself to everything on the dinner table and turn much of formerly charming London into a huge faceless collection of high-rise office buildings, with squalid industrial estates and council (public) housing on a par with the old Soviet Union spreading east and south. A recent British film, "Fish Tank", showed this slice of life in all its ugliness.
Thanks to the union-assisted neglect of manufacturing and production of decent consumer goods, domestic production of just about anything except Stilton cheese has almost entirely disappeared, replaced by financial services, and has allowed the working and lower middle classes to continue to live in a squalor unknown on the continent. The country blithely blunders on, in its tunnel vision (pardon the pun) pretending that it is as advanced and cultivated a country as any in western Europe despite the fact that western Europe's quality of life AND standard of living for all classes is the best in the world and about 100 times better than the UK (or the US for that matter).The major advance in living standards since the war seems to be the disappearance of green coloring from the peas on the plate.

Hardly a squeak was ever heard when Thatcher and Major were giving away the transportation systems or when the price of travel became so prohibitive (not to mention unreliable and downright dangerous) that everyone was forced into their private cars despite the high cost of fuel. Hardly a squeak is uttered when new major highways and airport expansions are planned that will further destroy what little is left of the countryside, or when upscale"improvement" with massive parking lots and new structures is proposed for Stonehenge (horrendous). A Neolithic tea house cannot be far behind.

And of course there is the deplorable deterioration, due to lack of government funding, of the magnificent cathedrals, arguably the most beautiful in the world, which is ignored by the government because they are technically church property even though hardly anyone attends church and the churches are England's major tourist and cultural attractions. I need not underscore the highway/truck/car nightmare that characterizes greater London and the incredible blight of second rate residential development in the south east and of course the disfigurement of almost the entire east and much of southern coast of England. Much of England since the 1950s now excels in its special brand of ugliness. You know things are bad when the local cathedral towns hold raffles and hold out the hat for contributions in order to make urgent repairs of these superb monuments.

Having lived for long periods in Italy and France, having visited eastern Europe and every western European country except Portugal, Sweden and the Baltics, and having spent weeks at a time on numerous visits to England since the 1950s (one of our daughters lives in London), and comparing England of the 1950s to England today, I find little has changed there. England is still living as it did in the post war period, both materially and culturally. It must be a shock for the English when they visit the continent and realize that they have been deprived of beauty, amenities, and general respect for the requirements of a civilized society.

Perhaps, like the US, not having suffered from the mass destruction of World War II, it was never able to muster any compassion or dedication to social justice and to the needs of citizens. Nor has there been much resistance against anything except fox hunting, which I agree should be banned but which hardly compares to the cultural collapse of the whole country. (London has one thing in common with Paris: a "retro metro" which stops running every night at a little past midnight, thus forcing people to drive into the city centers on weekends when they plan a big night on the town. However, it is reported that Paris has extended the weekend hours.)

In the immediate post-war period the English were arguably the most civilized, decent people on earth, not materialistic, very tolerant, compassionate. But once capitalism and the free market took control, the country descended into cultural and environmental barbarism. Aside from its accomplishments in theater and literature, it remains the west's equivalent of the third world. I marvel at the stoicism that is needed to put up with it today. Stiff upper lip is what you call it, right? I call it submission.

[Doggy Styles]

Ah yes, the little englander card. That usually follows when the bigot one doesn't work.

[xoggoth]

continuously spout moronic lower middle class rubbish

Apart from the title of "stupid germans", not a good title, it is more a series of observations than an anti-German rant and it is curious that you respond to observations on German history and character, true or not, with a second hand anti-British rant that is itself highly simplistic.

In fact I would say that they are two sides of the same coin, it is because Germans and most other nations have a stronger sense of nationhood and cohesion that they value and preserve their heritage more than we do but that character inevitably has a downside in that they put themselves first in other ways too.

[EternalOptimist]

Thats an interesting essay DarmStugIII, it brings to mind an old adage that my History professor told me.
He had this idea that the British, more notably the English, had one of the most viscious civil wars ever seen. On top of that was the plague and the great fire
So his theory was that it was deeply embedded in the psyche to prefer evolution vs revolution.
Its better to take a 100 years of low level pain, than 1 year of trauma

I dont know if there is any real basis in it. but it would explain a lot

[sasguru]

Not just you but every time someone brings up Germany then its all 'look what happened 70 years ago' and such well worn endearments. If we are to learn from history then we should be using that knowledge to stop it repeating not just mouthing these silly little platitudes. I would have expected that someone who come across as educated not to act like a 'little englander' and continuously spout moronic lower middle class rubbish each time but to instead act in a mature educated manner. Yes, Germany has and will continue to make mistakes but so does Britain but because of the insular nature of the British people, who either live in Britain or in expat-enclaves, they cannot accept that.

Someone sent me this a short while ago, I don't know who wrote it and sadly I agree with some of it:

That quote is a pile of cliched claptrap. Ironic that I make some very precise points in my first point and you respond with some emotional rubbish.
I'm forced to conclude our german expats are not very bright to a man.

[darmstadt]

That quote is a pile of cliched claptrap. Ironic that I make some very precise points in my first point and you respond with some emotional rubbish.
I'm forced to conclude our german expats are not very bright to a man.

Conclude what you want but surely if I was a 'german expat' then surely I wouldn't be English, would I, oh man of no soul?