Hillsborough

[eek]

athens was wrong no question and some idiots need to have a look at themselves but you can't tell me politicans and national papers accussing liverpools fans of "robbing from the dead" "beating up police officers" and "urinating on those trying to help" isn't demonisation, they were lies then and they are lies now

it was lies initially to allow the South Yorkshire police to point at something other than their own total and utter incompetency.

You then have two different issues.

1) it was wrong for the Sun to publish what they did (although to be honest the only difference between them and the other papers on the days after the disaster was one of emphasis).

2) Liverpool fans have used it to show victimisation when they have acted and been caught acting like a bunch of vicious thugs. There was no excuse for Heysel yet many "fans" seem to want to lump the two together in a "Woe is me" style.

[FiveTimes]

I'm trying really hard to stay out of this thread as it can get far too emotional and lots of people have their own views on what really happened.

The stadium was used the previous year for the same semi and liverpool who had taken more fans where given the larger stand. However the following year they were allocated the smaller stand that couldn't cope.
Yes people got in with out tickets, yes there was a surge. However it was down to a failing of the police.

[filthy1980]

But.. but.. but... you're talking out of your arse.

Where's the proof?

where's my proof that fans didn't rob the dead or urinate on paramedics, are you for real?

you quote me where there was ever any evidence to suggest that these claim had any validity apart from the headline of a rag of a newspaper sanctioned by a cretinous editor

[Arturo Bassick]

However it was down to a failing of the police.

That is like blaming the last shot of vodka for the hangover.
If the ticketless had stayed at home then the motorways would not have been so crowded and the legit fans would have had more chance to arrive on time.
If the ticketless had not been there then there would have been no need for pushing.
If those with tickets had behaved in a civilized manner then none of this would have happened.

The stand was big enough for the amount of people issued with tickets.

It would have required full scale riot policing for the outcome to have been different.

You can not simply lay this on the police. There is fault in EVERY corner and the best thing to do is let it go.

[Spacecadet]

The stand was big enough for the amount of people issued with tickets.

No it wasn't... once the middle pen was full fans were supposed to be directed to pens on either side. This didn't happen.

[FiveTimes]

If the ticketless had stayed at home then the motorways would not have been so crowded and the legit fans would have had more chance to arrive on time.

The delays on the motorway were not due to travelling fans but road works.

[Arturo Bassick]

No it wasn't... once the middle pen was full fans were supposed to be directed to pens on either side. This didn't happen.

Just cos it didn't happen doesn't mean it wasn't big enough. If all the pens hold 2000 people then 2000 tickets would have been issued.
The ticketless and late comers should have realised that there was no room for them and stopped pushing.

[FiveTimes]

Just cos it didn't happen doesn't mean it wasn't big enough. If all the pens hold 2000 people then 2000 tickets would have been issued.
The ticketless and late comers should have realised that there was no room for them and stopped pushing.

and how can the ticket less fans get out of the way ? the funnel that the police had created had no way out

[Arturo Bassick]

The delays on the motorway were not due to travelling fans but road works.

So the ticket less fans took up no space on the road or railways? Even if that were the case, there is still no excuse for all the pushing and shoving.

[Arturo Bassick]

and how can the ticket less fans get out of the way ? the funnel that the police had created had no way out

They should not have been there in the first place.
If you are going to blame the bizzies for their part you have to recognise the part played by everybody else.