Financial experts and lay persons

[DimPrawn]

Is religion not the answer?

The Rioter's Prayer.

Our Father, who art in prison,
Mum doesn't know his name,
Rioting done,
...You'll read it in The Sun,
In Birmingham as it is in London.
Give us this day our dole money cheque,
And forgive us for rioting,
As we forgive those who give ASBOs against us.
Lead us not into employment,
But deliver us free housing.
For thine is smashed windows,
The plasmas and nicked computers,
For ever and ever,
Innit.

Brilliant!

[Mich the Tester]

Not easily. It requires a change in cultural mindset, which may be nigh-on-impossible for some, that you live within your means.
And if your means are meagre, you have to accept being poor and not "entitled" to what you want.
That applies to both individuals and countries.
But how can you reverse the "entitlement" mentality that has been prevalent in the West since the 2nd world war?

Ah yes, but now you mean a mass change in mindset. What irks me is that I have personally always felt I was living within my means. I only borrowed to buy my house, having saved for the deposit. Of course I use a credit card for booking hotels etc, but pay it off every month. I heeded the advice of investing in my own pension, only to see that after 10 years of paying in, the money seemed to have evaporated. I saved, only to be forced by the bankruptcy of a clientco to live off my savings. I have paid my taxes but got the impression that however much I pay it's never enough to finance the great shopping list of voters.

In one sense I am in a comfortable position. The family owns agricultural assets (land, beef cattle and good quality breeding stock) and houses. I might be forced to wait a while longer before replacing my second hand car with another second hand car, but I don't care too much about that. However, I want to continue earning a living and I don't want to live in a society where the people two streets further up are going hungry, as I fear will happen should these economic woes continue.

I understand from older people that in the past there was not a culture of borrowing and living beyond one's means in this country (Holland), rather a culture of saving and living modestly, and a culture whereby 'getting rich' was not something that happened overnight, but something that happened over a period of decades through diligence and good sense. Maybe they're viewing the past through rose tinted spectacles, but perhaps whatever mechanism(s) acted to change that culture could be harnessed to correct the cultural problems of now.

[sasguru]

Ah yes, but now you mean a mass change in mindset. What irks me is that I have personally always felt I was living within my means. I only borrowed to buy my house, having saved for the deposit. Of course I use a credit card for booking hotels etc, but pay it off every month. I heeded the advice of investing in my own pension, only to see that after 10 years of paying in, the money seemed to have evaporated. I saved, only to be forced by the bankruptcy of a clientco to live off my savings. I have paid my taxes but got the impression that however much I pay it's never enough to finance the great shopping list of voters.

In one sense I am in a comfortable position. The family owns agricultural assets (land, beef cattle and good quality breeding stock) and houses. I might be forced to wait a while longer before replacing my second hand car with another second hand car, but I don't care too much about that. However, I want to continue earning a living and I don't want to live in a society where the people two streets further up are going hungry, as I fear will happen should these economic woes continue.

I understand from older people that in the past there was not a culture of borrowing and living beyond one's means in this country (Holland), rather a culture of saving and living modestly, and a culture whereby 'getting rich' was not something that happened overnight, but something that happened over a period of decades through diligence and good sense. Maybe they're viewing the past through rose tinted spectacles, but perhaps whatever mechanism(s) acted to change that culture could be harnessed to correct the cultural problems of now.

The sense of hubris and over-confidence that led to this scenario has re-occurred time and again in history with every great civilisation right from the first great civilisations in the Tigris-Euphrates valley. The only difference is that change happens much faster now.
It may be that's its inevitable and there's nothing to do about it when a culture gets to a certain stage. Perhaps instead of slagging off our politicians, they've actually managed decline reasonably well since you can't force a people to become hard-working, productive scientists and engineers if they only want to spout bollux on internet forums/watch soaps all day and generally live off the past.

[Mich the Tester]

The sense of hubris and over-confidence that led to this scenario has re-occurred time and again in history with every great civilisation right from the first great civilisations in the Tigris-Euphrates valley. The only difference is that change happens much faster now.
It may be that's its inevitable and there's nothing to do about it when a culture gets to a certain stage. Perhaps instead of slagging off our politicians, they've actually managed decline reasonably well since you can't force a people to become hard-working, productive scientists and engineers if they only want to spout bollux on internet forums/watch soaps all day and generally live off the past.

Well if I have to blame politicians for something, it's that many of them have pandered to the wishes of the 'majority' to have new schools, bridges, welfare payments and so on without explaining how much all these nice things will cost and that taxes will have to reflect the shopping list of the electorate. For example, I find it inexcusable that in western countries the issue of pension age has been shifted into the future, with almost all governments effectively shifting the problem onto the next government by delaying the raise for several years, when really if they were to raise pension age by 1 year from tomorrow morning they could ease a lot of financial trouble. Right now in NL there's a wind of xenophobia going through the country and some people are calling for borders to be closed and tightly policed. No politician has the guts to say to people 'yes we can do that but it will cost x billion euros to implement and x billion euros in delays to trade, ergo it might cost you your job'. I used to think it was a strength of conservatives that they would confront people with the harsh reality of the costs of government policies, but more recently I see them promising to jail the criminals, chuck out the immigrants, tighten the borders and delay the inevitable pain of a rising pension age. In fact they just have a different shopping list to the lefties and want to pay for it the same way; by using someone else's credit card.

The funny thing here in NL is that if you look at the policies and actions of previous governments back to the 60s, the Dutch Labour party have historically been much more parsimonious with taxpayers' money than the conservative and liberal parties. However, the right winged parties have kept up the perception that 'the left' have squandered the money.

[ThomasSoerensen]

Well if I have to blame politicians for something, it's that many of them have pandered to the wishes of the 'majority' to have new schools, bridges, welfare payments and so on without explaining how much all these nice things will cost and that taxes will have to reflect the shopping list of the electorate. For example, I find it inexcusable that in western countries the issue of pension age has been shifted into the future, with almost all governments effectively shifting the problem onto the next government by delaying the raise for several years, when really if they were to raise pension age by 1 year from tomorrow morning they could ease a lot of financial trouble. Right now in NL there's a wind of xenophobia going through the country and some people are calling for borders to be closed and tightly policed. No politician has the guts to say to people 'yes we can do that but it will cost x billion euros to implement and x billion euros in delays to trade, ergo it might cost you your job'. I used to think it was a strength of conservatives that they would confront people with the harsh reality of the costs of government policies, but more recently I see them promising to jail the criminals, chuck out the immigrants, tighten the borders and delay the inevitable pain of a rising pension age. In fact they just have a different shopping list to the lefties and want to pay for it the same way; by using someone else's credit card.

The funny thing here in NL is that if you look at the policies and actions of previous governments back to the 60s, the Dutch Labour party have historically been much more parsimonious with taxpayers' money than the conservative and liberal parties. However, the right winged parties have kept up the perception that 'the left' have squandered the money.

Almost identical to the story in Denmark.

Where is the country that is responsible and direct in the communication of costs of benefits?

I am starting to think that it is in-compatible with democracy and politicians needing re-election.
They will promise the world to get re-elected.

[Mich the Tester]

Almost identical to the story in Denmark.

Where is the country that is responsible and direct in the communication of costs of benefits?

I am starting to think that it is in-compatible with democracy and politicians needing re-election.
They will promise the world to get re-elected.

Yes, and I hear from a trucker at the rugby club who regularly drives to and from Denmark that the increased border controls, put in at the behest of a populist party, are causing significant delays, thereby raising costs for Danish businesses and consumers and also leading Scandinavian transporters to bypass Denmark in favour of shipping from Hamburg to Sweden. Obviously, it's only a small cost and perhaps a tiny part of the problem, but again it's an example of pandering to emotions without explaining the true costs.

Of course, the trucket doesn't analyse it further; he just points out that he has to pass his costs on to his boss, by way of extra working hours, who passes it on to customers by way of increased prices, etc, etc, etc.

[sasguru]

I am starting to think that it is in-compatible with democracy and politicians needing re-election.
.

Yes lets jump on the anti-democratic bandwagon because we know that works

[Mich the Tester]

Yes lets jump on the anti-democratic bandwagon because we know that works

I'd rather not but it's a valid concern that the masses will.

[sasguru]

I'd rather not but it's a valid concern that the masses will.

Some European countries in the 30s did, not the US or Britain.

[Mich the Tester]

Some European countries in the 30s did, not the US or Britain.

Some might do it again. Greece's populace seem to be getting rather angry as are many Spaniards. Neither have a long history of stable democracy.