Ayn Rand and Objectivism

[Mich the Tester]

FFS this is CUK. Base insults and over simplifications are de rigeur. Balanced views and nuances are out.

ftfy

[Lockhouse]

A little bit of an exaggeration, but certainly contains some truth. Rand was born in Russia into a family of small business owners and experienced the revolution first hand; her father's business was stolen by the state and she was unable to complete her studies due to being a member of the 'bourgeoisie'. This experience coloured her view for all her life; her work can perhaps be seen as a reaction to the totalitarian state in which she found herself and the mistreatment of her and her family. In America she saw her dream society of individual freedom.

I think her work is relevant in the context of totalitarian politics and the heroism of those who stood up for their personal freedom in horrific circumstances. However, she seems to suggest that any action by government to assist those people who are not doing so well is an irreversible step toward socialist tyranny. She also seems to believe in complete free will or volition of the individual; that's a concept that has been overtaken by modern scientific work which shows that free will is always bounded by some restraints, obviously external like laws, but also internal, to do with nature and nurture. I also think that she tends to portray successful people as being successful purely as a result of their own actions, whereas I would argue that success in any field of endeavour is more often to do with a combination of factors including personal effort, choice and sacrifice, but also conditioning, genetics, the surrouinding environment and old fashioned luck. Lots of people work hard and strive for success; some make it and some don't, and those who do make it can be tempted, especially if they follow Ayn Rand's reasoning, to look down upon those who don't make it and treat them as failures. This arrogance seems to me to be part of the problems to which Sas and Xog refer. She seems to have a utopian vision of a libertarian society while forgetting that the great weakness of any utopian vision is that one man's utopia is another man's dystopia.

I'd say it's worth reading, but you shouldn't restrict your reading to Rand; go out looking for opposing views as well.

Great reply - thank you.

[Churchill]

If Ayn Rand was alive she would extol the virtues of the bankers since they looked after themselves and screwed everyone else for their selfish ends.
That's her idea in a nutshell.

To be honest, you don't strike me as being much of a socialist yourself.

[LisaContractorUmbrella]

I tried and gave up about 3/4 through as I thought it was simplistic, turgid and of poor literary merit.
I read enough to realise that the current economic problems have been caused by putting the Randian "philosophy" in action in Wall Street.

"Watch money. Money is the barometer of a society’s virtue. When you see that trading is done, not by consent, but by compulsion—when you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing—when you see that money is flowing to those who deal, not in goods, but in favors—when you see that men get richer by graft and by pull than by work, and your laws don’t protect you against them, but protect them against you—when you see corruption being rewarded and honesty becoming a self-sacrifice—you may know that your society is doomed. "

The above is a quote from Atlas Shrugged - I accept that you disagree with the idea of Objectivism as is your right - but you haven't actually explained why; perhaps you could tell me what you disagree with in the above statement?

[Mich the Tester]

"Watch money. Money is the barometer of a society’s virtue. When you see that trading is done, not by consent, but by compulsion—when you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing—when you see that money is flowing to those who deal, not in goods, but in favors—when you see that men get richer by graft and by pull than by work, and your laws don’t protect you against them, but protect them against you—when you see corruption being rewarded and honesty becoming a self-sacrifice—you may know that your society is doomed. "

The above is a quote from Atlas Shrugged - I accept that you disagree with the idea of Objectivism as is your right - but you haven't actually explained why; perhaps you could tell me what you disagree with in the above statement?

Are you really asking somebody to agree or disagree with a whole set of philosophical ideas by cherry picking quotes from the work?

By the way, the words 'when you see that men get richer by graft and by pull than by work, and your laws don’t protect you against them, but protect them against you' could just as well come from Das Kapital or an analysis of how consumers have been duped by financial institutions. It could just as well apply to Africans climbing down holes in the ground to mine cobalt by hand to provide profit for Chinese investors.

[Churchill]

"Watch money. Money is the barometer of a society’s virtue. When you see that trading is done, not by consent, but by compulsion—when you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing—when you see that money is flowing to those who deal, not in goods, but in favors—when you see that men get richer by graft and by pull than by work, and your laws don’t protect you against them, but protect them against you—when you see corruption being rewarded and honesty becoming a self-sacrifice—you may know that your society is doomed. "

The above is a quote from Atlas Shrugged - I accept that you disagree with the idea of Objectivism as is your right - but you haven't actually explained why; perhaps you could tell me what you disagree with in the above statement?

This should be interesting.

[sasguru]

Are you really asking somebody to agree or disagree with a whole set of philosophical ideas by cherry picking quotes from the work?

.

WHS. I'm sure you could find many quotes from Ayn Rand to which I would agree and most to which I wouldn't.
Incidentally I agree with the quote above by the OP, but Ayn Rand hadn't the wit or brains to realise that her Nietschean idea of supermen being dominant to all lesser beings would lead to the same corruption she mentions.

[DaveB]

What?

Telemachus Rhade - Andromeda Wiki - The New Systems Commonwealth

Fnord

[LisaContractorUmbrella]

WHS. I'm sure you could find many quotes from Ayn Rand to which I would agree and most to which I wouldn't.
Incidentally I agree with the quote above by the OP, but Ayn Rand hadn't the wit or brains to realise that her Nietschean idea of supermen being dominant to all lesser beings would lead to the same corruption she mentions.

You seem to be quite ready to vociferously dismiss her writing as complete rubbish yet you seem unwilling to explain what it is you disagree with. Atlas Shrugged was a work of fiction but if you believe that a fair summation of her ideas is a world of superbeings crushing others beneath their feet then you have totally missed the point

[sasguru]

You seem to be quite ready to vociferously dismiss her writing as complete rubbish yet you seem unwilling to explain what it is you disagree with. Atlas Shrugged was a work of fiction but if you believe that a fair summation of her ideas is a world of superbeings crushing others beneath their feet then you have totally missed the point

OK lets take just one of the ideas she espoused (and I think it's clear she did espouse this), "laissez faire" capitalism. As I explained in an earlier post, Alan Greenspan was a fan/friend.
And it turns out as we have seen in the last 2 years that it doesn't really work.
What have you to say about that?