Cameron: State multiculturalism has failed

[sasguru]

Only this is the way I saw the incident start...

Funny that, I thought the incident started when you labelled all Jews as being manipulative of non-jews based on a one-time experience of working for a Jewish firm.



Like I said, t'would be better to concede gracefully rather than carry on digging as is your wont.

[Old Greg]

It's there in black and white. In order of posts.

You haven't got a clue what or who you are defending or even in fact if you're defending them at all.

EC4N has just proved that.

It is in black and white. It is in order. But it is selective.

I do have a clue about who I am defending, but I do not claim expertise in Jewish religion or culture. Nor do I believe that that is a pre-requisite to take a stand against anti-semitism.

[Churchill]

It is in black and white. It is in order. But it is selective.

I do have a clue about who I am defending, but I do not claim expertise in Jewish religion or culture. Nor do I believe that that is a pre-requisite to take a stand against anti-semitism.

Anti-semitism wasn't the first thing in this thread that you posted.

That thing about Jews as well.

Very high-brow.

You've accused me of being ant-semitic. You're wrong.

[Old Greg]

Anti-semitism wasn't the first thing in this thread that you posted.



Very high-brow.

You've accused me of being ant-semitic. You're wrong.

It is true that I may be wrong. But you expressed a pretty unpleasant (but not the worst I've ever heard by a long way) anti-semitic view, and I'm struggling to undesrstand why you would express that view if you're not anti-semitic.

I happen to feel strongly about the issue, and I don't see why my ignorance about the relative importance of the Torah and the Talmud should mean otherwise.

[EC4N]

Agree that: it is his opinion; there is no incitment; it would not contravene any laws. That was never the argument.

He has used his limited observations and applied them to the Jewish people. He has absolutely prejudged Jewish people based on their ethnicity (if that is the word we choose to use) - he has said, 'This is what Jewish people [who I have never met] are like'. What else is that?

You may think it a little harsh to label him. Is it not more than a little harsh for him to take his views based on his experience and apply them to a whole people, who as we know, have not always had a great time of it when it comes to prejudice?

Is Israel Shahak being anti-semitic by referring to Talmudic law as described in the article taken from The Times?

'What he's done is he's gone back to the original Hebrew sources and translated them and presented them to the English reading public, something which their rabbis and their others will not do...

We all know about the Ten Commandments. Israel Shahak mentions here that if we take the eighth commandment, thou shalt not steal, this is taken to be prohibition against kidnapping a Jewish person. Kidnapping of Gentiles by Jews is allowed by Talmudic law.'

[Churchill]

It is true that I may be wrong. But you expressed a pretty unpleasant (but not the worst I've ever heard by a long way) anti-semitic view, and I'm struggling to undesrstand why you would express that view if you're not anti-semitic.

I happen to feel strongly about the issue, and I don't see why my ignorance about the relative importance of the Torah and the Talmud should mean otherwise.

There is no "may be wrong" about it. I'm telling you that your accusation that I am anti-semitic is groundless, without truth, incorrect and downright wrong.

You have (deliberately or not)misunderstood my original comment.

[Old Greg]

Is Israel Shahak being anti-semitic by referring to Talmudic law as described in the article taken from The Times?

'What he's done is he's gone back to the original Hebrew sources and translated them and presented them to the English reading public, something which their rabbis and their others will not do...

We all know about the Ten Commandments. Israel Shahak mentions here that if we take the eighth commandment, thou shalt not steal, this is taken to be prohibition against kidnapping a Jewish person. Kidnapping of Gentiles by Jews is allowed by Talmudic law.'

I don't know. I don't claim enough expertise to form a view. But that does not mean that I cannot determine whether the original post under discussion is anti-Semitic. To use a more extreme example, if someone shouts across the road, 'I'll get you, you f***ing Jew,' I can tell that is anti-semitism, whether or not I can answer your question.

Or do you think otherwise? And if you do, I'd be genuinely interested to know why.

[Churchill]

I don't know. I don't claim enough expertise to form a view. But that does not mean that I cannot determine whether the original post under discussion is anti-Semitic. To use a more extreme example, if someone shouts across the road, 'I'll get you, you f***ing Jew,' I can tell that is anti-semitism, whether or not I can answer your question.

Or do you think otherwise? And if you do, I'd be genuinely interested to know why.

Forget the extreme example. You mentioned my original statement and said that it was anti-semitic.

It isn't. You're incorrect in your interpretation.

[Old Greg]

There is no "may be wrong" about it. I'm telling you that your accusation that I am anti-semitic is groundless, without truth, incorrect and downright wrong.

You have (deliberately or not)misunderstood my original comment.

OK, in the interest of some kind of harmony, I am genuinely puzzled, and struggle to reconcile your view about the Jewish people (and it isn't a nice one) with your claim to be anti-semitic. I am not being mischievous - I just cannot see why someone who is not prejudiced agaist Jews would come out with that.

[Old Greg]

Forget the extreme example. You mentioned my original statement and said that it was anti-semitic.

It isn't. You're incorrect in your interpretation.

Multiple conversations... the extreme example was to demostrate how it is possible to recognise anti-semitism without an expert knowledge of Jewish religion or culture.