Sense of Sun Readers

[xoggoth]

Indeed. It is a lamentable apology for a democracy but then most are. There are no effective limits or sanctions on government at all other than such disagreements as exist within it at all levels. If they required us all to have compulsory DNA testing what could we do about it except protest/riot? You can do those things in dictatatorships.

A real democracy needs powerful sanctions against leaders. Blair and Heath should have ended up in prison for misleading the people.

[xoggoth]

I think we have to be very wary of results of polls. How were the questions worded? What choices were offered? Was there any other text or preamble? It has been shown to greatly influence choice. What was the context and timing? Answers about punishment in the wake of a few atrocious murders or terror bombings probably alter once people have calmed down a bit. What did people have in mind? Is violence justified against the state? - does yes mean it's ok to bomb parties you don't agree with or simply that you would resist dictatorship?

[d000hg]

They do have a very strong democratic system, they just choose to vote for idiots and film stars rather than academics and economists.

I guess this is down to the lobbyists as mentioned earlier, shame.

I find the US system to be confusing and complicated, though maybe that's simply from lack of understanding and our system is just as confusing to other countries?

TL you know full well we don't have a democracy in the correct sense of the word. It's an elected oligarchy, we have the power to elect who we want thats all. Once in power they can change their mind, take the country to war, sign treaties with foreign powers.

I genuinely think this is better. Hire a software expert to write software and let them decide how to implement it. Hire a business analyst to tell you what your company should be doing differently. Etc.

The public are fickle and in reality, to fix things can take several years. Unless you delegate authority to rule to those you vote to rule, we'd be flip-flopping every time a new heart-stirring story involving a child came up in the news.

[GillsMan]

99% of Sun Readers who responded to a section called "You're The Jury" (which just tells you everything) voted in favour of the death penalty to stop wasting taxes on criminals.

So many problems with that, but I'll leave aside the moral issues of killing someone and just concentrate on the fact that it costs a LOT more to kill someone. Numerous appeals, solitary cells, 20 years on death row, etc, etc. But the Sun Readers couldn't see that or work it out for themselves.

[d000hg]

99% of those who bothered to vote isn't so useful as a stat though, it's like TV votes on drug legalisation... druggies phone in 10 times but everyone else generally don't bother phoning in at all.

[darmstadt]

So many problems with that, but I'll leave aside the moral issues of killing someone and just concentrate on the fact that it costs a LOT more to kill someone. Numerous appeals, solitary cells, 20 years on death row, etc, etc. But the Sun Readers couldn't see that or work it out for themselves.

Eh? Whats cheaper, a bullet to the head (or 2 if they've got a thick skull) or 20 years of being mollycoddled by a society which allows prisoners to have all the amenities that many normal folk don't(*)? I agree with the moral issues though...

(*) Been reading about that riot in the open prison where they didn't like the fact they were not allowed to have alcohol which is against the rules anyway. Where the hell did they get it from in the first place? Plus they had a new recreation wing which had 10 new pool tables, GTF, no wonder people commit crimes if this is the type of lifestyle you get when put away...

[d000hg]

Eh? Whats cheaper, a bullet to the head (or 2 if they've got a thick skull) or 20 years of being mollycoddled by a society which allows prisoners to have all the amenities that many normal folk don't(*)?

They can't sentence and immediately execute. You've got to be so damn sure you haven't made a mistake, they sit on the Row for years while appeals are done, etc - you are entitled to appeal and obviously unlike a prison sentence they can't let you go after they kill you, so they have to allow every avenue to be explored.

I was just reading Bill Bryson's article on this in the US system, and it's VERY expensive.

[darmstadt]

They can't sentence and immediately execute. You've got to be so damn sure you haven't made a mistake, they sit on the Row for years while appeals are done, etc - you are entitled to appeal and obviously unlike a prison sentence they can't let you go after they kill you, so they have to allow every avenue to be explored.

I was just reading Bill Bryson's article on this in the US system, and it's VERY expensive.

Yeah but thats the long and civilised way. Surely it should go:

commit crime
get caught
go before court
found guilty
taken outside
show in back of head

Cheap and cheerful. Now if you're not going to do this then drop the death sentence and have life (means your whole life) in prison, preferably a not very nice one.

[d000hg]

So we should remove the right to appeal? What number of false positives (killing innocent people) would you deem acceptable?

[thunderlizard]

life (means your whole life) in prison

Including, of course, the bit of your life that you had before you committed the crime. Requires a time machine of course, but if life is going to mean life, it's simple common sense.