Why there will be no real recovery from this recession

[Saddo]

Sorry that I had to spoil a good load of tosh. Must try harder....

However, the current arrangements of applying elastoplast to this world crisis will not work, and fresh ideas are needed.

[Doggy Styles]

Well The wrinklies staying in work denies opportunity to the youngsters entering the job market, and what we are currently already doing is committing a generation of youngsters who will probably never work, and all that money we "saved" in solving the wrinklies problem has been diverted to the younngsters instead. Crime will rise etc.

The wrinklies, as you put it, are those with the knowledge and experience that we supposedly need, but instead we are hiring them from abroad.

If youngsters are so ill-equipped to compete in that market place, and I have family experience that they are, there is something wrong with their training and education.

What we have to bear in mind is that the world only needs so many widgets, you can't keep adding workers to the pile dreaming that they can just make more widgets. Unfortunately that's what the politicians are currently doing. They are assuming infinite demand and that you just can't make enough widgets.

This is a myth. It was part of the argument of the Luddites. If the world has always only needed so many widgets, the world population increase since the industrial revolution must all be unemployed. That's over 5 billion people.

[Green Mango]

They are either small or have old fashioned things like factories and stuff, which we got rid off in the 80s.
Do you know Britain's biggest manufacturer is British Aerospace which employs, wait for it, 20,000 people, AFAIK.
Where are people meant to get jobs, which generate taxes, which can pay for generous welfare states?

Actually we lost 2 times as many engineering/manufacturing jobs in the 2000's under Labour.

[HairyArsedBloke]

However, the current arrangements of applying elastoplast to this world crisis will not work, and fresh ideas are needed.

The ideas have been around for years. The solution is very simple: a greater proportion of the population needs to work in the private sector for longer. For population read each countries nationals.

Early retirement, public sector workers, and imports displacing locals are all doing the exact opposite of what is needed.

[AtW]

Only the elimination of minimum wage, employment protection laws, union rights, and welfare will begin to make British workers competitive again.

No it won't be when lots of jobs can be done by slave labour in China or India for a tenner a day: average salary in UK is like what £25k before tax, how can one live pretty well on this, give children education etc? The only way to offset that was to get into debt but that option is now fully used up.

[AtW]

The ideas have been around for years. The solution is very simple: a greater proportion of the population needs to work in the private sector for longer.

So that's how you plan to compete with China who have no pension system to speak of? Or child labour in some of those asian countries who sew expensive western brand name trainers?

All that just brings west to much lower standard of living, what's so good in that?

[Saddo]

This is a myth. It was part of the argument of the Luddites. If the world has always only needed so many widgets, the world population increase since the industrial revolution must all be unemployed. That's over 5 billion people.

So we can keep producing cars which will be stockpiled in fields because there are more cars than there are drivers who want cars? Can't see how that master plan can work to be honest.

My belief is that people can be employed "profitably" without this having to be related to bottom-line figures as it is today. That could only work if the measurement of "profit" was based upon the individual having a purpose in life. And if that purpose was to play bingo for pleasure - great! If we kept the wrinklies occupied with bingo (etc) then they would stay healthier and their cost to the nation would be reduced.

Maybe some of these wrinklies could be gainfully engaged selling the Big Issue on street corners. That would give them a purpose too.

[doodab]

I think that humanity, on a global scale, simply has more people than it needs to get everything it needs to get done, done.

I think the answer is for people to work less and spend more time having fun. Essentially, we could have the future we were promised in the 50s, if we put our minds to it.

[CheeseSlice]

I think that humanity, on a global scale, simply has more people than it needs to get everything it needs to get done, done.

I think the answer is for people to work less and spend more time having fun. Essentially, we could have the future we were promised in the 50s, if we put our minds to it.

I agree with your first point. The problem is that the requirement for workers doesn't increase in proportion with the size of the population. There is too much emphasis on efficiency, automation, centralisation, etc, these days. This is a good thing (reduced costs to consumers, increased standards and quality, etc), however it does ultimately reduce the need for workers doing productive work.

One way to achieve your 'work less' idea would be for the state to enforce longer statutory holidays for all full time workers. Give them say 80 days holiday per year, and it would force industry to create more jobs, although in reality it would be a form of forced job sharing.
Would this really work though? It would certainly annoy the crap out of business owners ...

[HairyArsedBloke]

As in all things, if you reduce the price then it would boost demand. It works for labour in the same way it works for spuds and televisions.